Why the Mass in Latin?
#74
(06-16-2011, 03:24 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(06-16-2011, 02:33 AM)Melkite Wrote: Ruling with an iron fist never goes over well, and is especially not what Christ intended for the successor of St. Peter when he granted him the keys.  Inserting the filioque into the creed by force or coersion will inevitably lead to an otherwise avoidable schism.  Roman pride pitted against Byzantine pride.  One way to root out this schismatic tendency would be for Rome to lead in humility and remove the filioque from the creed wherever it is recited liturgically.

Removing the Filioque from the liturgical recitation of the Creed where it was already present would give the impression that the Church had changed its doctrine. It would lead many falsely to believe that one can reject what the Lyons II and Florence dogmatically defined, namely, "that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son" (Denzinger 691).

I'm not saying you have to remove it.  I'm just saying, we don't have to add it and won't be compelled to.  Do you want to retain the filioque in your creed or do you want liturgical conformity?  Because you won't have liturgical conformity on your terms.  You don't get to have your Latin cake and eat it too.

(06-16-2011, 10:50 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-16-2011, 02:24 AM)Melkite Wrote: Why does it really matter for Latins to know when exactly the consecration takes place?  Is it insufficient for you to preserve the mysteries of God?

It certainly matters for the Church herself that has authoritatively defined when the consecration takes place.

Is it not sufficient for you to submit to her judgement?

It is.  I'm just saying I don't understand why it was absolutely necessary to define it in the West when the East was doing just fine to let it remain a mystery.  Didn't the West ever have the concept of only defining what was necessary for salvation and letting the rest remain debatable?

(06-16-2011, 10:55 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-16-2011, 02:33 AM)Melkite Wrote: Inserting the filioque into the creed by force or coersion will inevitably lead to an otherwise avoidable schism.  Roman pride pitted against Byzantine pride.

It will lead "inevitably" to a schism only if Eastern Catholics aren't Catholics to begin with. Inserting truths of faith into a creed is a point of dissention with heretics and schismatics alone.

But believing that whether the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone or from both the Father and the Son has never been necessary for salvation, and now Rome has made it necessary, unnecessarily putting souls in danger of hell.

(06-16-2011, 10:55 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
Quote:One way to root out this schismatic tendency would be for Rome to lead in humility and remove the filioque from the creed wherever it is recited liturgically.

This is completely unacceptable.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. This is a truth of our faith. Either Easterners profess it or they will rot in their errors.

It is perfectly acceptable, since not all doctrines of the Catholic Church are included in the Creed.  The Creed without the filioque is perfectly Catholic.  Forcing people to add it when it is a stumbling block to their faith is only justifiable if they cannot be saved without accepting it, and neither Christ himself nor the Apostles ever made this issue one of importance.  While it may now be a requirement for us to accept it theologically, the fact that is so is proof positive that Rome at the time put its intellectual pride over the salvation of souls.  Now THAT is truly unacceptable. 

You have said before, and rightly, my faith isn't very strong.  There are others whose faith is even less strong.  While I can ponder on the filioque, and I can look at it abstractly seeing how it can possibly be true, there are many who can't, and forcing acceptance will force them out of the Church and into hell.  Something the Church absolutely has authority to do, but is it beneficial to do so?  All things are permissable, St. Paul said, but not all things are good.  He can eat meat if he wants, but he would rather never eat meat again than cause a brother with a weaker faith to stumble.  Rome needs to abandon its arrogance and return to this mindset of St. Paul.  Its preference for intellectual superiority over the salvation of souls is abhorrent, and the souls it has unnecessarily sent to hell by coldly demanding obedience on issues not necessary for salvation will likely forever count against it.  It would be better for the individual Popes and other Latins who are guilty of such pride to hang a millstone around their neck and throw themselves into the ocean than to face the judgement of God over the damnation they have unnecessarily caused.

I already have a feeling of what your response will be, and if it is what I expect, it will just be a further example of your inability to accept personal responsibility and just pass the blame off to someone else, as usual.
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Why the Mass in Latin? - by Petertherock - 06-12-2011, 08:45 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Maldon - 06-12-2011, 10:04 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by LausTibiChriste - 06-12-2011, 10:21 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by The Curt Jester - 06-12-2011, 10:25 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-13-2011, 12:39 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Stubborn - 06-13-2011, 12:49 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by CrusaderKing - 06-13-2011, 01:18 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-13-2011, 03:41 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by jovan66102 - 06-13-2011, 04:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-14-2011, 01:32 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by GottmitunsAlex - 06-14-2011, 01:36 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 07:08 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 07:12 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Aragon - 06-14-2011, 08:43 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 09:38 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-14-2011, 11:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-14-2011, 12:04 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-14-2011, 12:11 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by jovan66102 - 06-14-2011, 12:23 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-14-2011, 03:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-14-2011, 03:45 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Scipio_a - 06-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:49 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:53 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:56 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 10:00 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-14-2011, 10:02 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 10:09 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-14-2011, 10:24 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-14-2011, 10:32 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-14-2011, 10:54 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 11:36 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-15-2011, 12:47 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 01:51 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-15-2011, 02:11 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-15-2011, 03:34 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 06:14 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-15-2011, 07:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 08:47 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-15-2011, 08:51 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-15-2011, 08:57 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:06 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:10 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:16 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:31 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:35 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:38 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-15-2011, 07:12 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-15-2011, 07:13 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 07:14 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 07:54 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 01:43 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 02:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 02:28 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 02:44 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 02:46 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:54 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 03:02 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 03:04 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 03:09 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 03:18 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 03:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 10:50 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 10:55 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 11:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 11:34 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 11:54 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 12:27 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 12:42 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 01:07 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 01:47 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 01:57 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 02:01 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 06:25 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 06:44 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 06:50 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 07:07 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 09:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 09:46 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 09:51 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Marc - 06-17-2011, 12:23 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-17-2011, 12:28 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 12:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-17-2011, 12:44 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Unum Sint - 06-17-2011, 12:50 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 06:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 06:57 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:46 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 11:09 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 12:34 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 03:44 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:30 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 08:40 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-17-2011, 08:41 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:56 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 11:15 PM



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)