Why the Mass in Latin?
#77
(06-16-2011, 12:27 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(06-16-2011, 11:54 AM)K3vinhood Wrote:
Melkite Wrote:But believing that whether the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone or from both the Father and the Son has never been necessary for salvation, and now Rome has made it necessary, unnecessarily putting souls in danger of hell.

Defining areas of the faith are not meant to put more souls in danger of hell. The Holy Ghost guides and leads the Church and it's teachings. If you leave everything undefined and up to mystery your'e opening the door to possible schisms or heresies as has happened with the orthodox.

But the Orthodox don't leave everything undefined.  The Orthodox (granted, while they were still Catholic) have defined that Christ is both God and man, not just God or just man.  It's defined that Christ really died on the cross and rose from the dead, it's defined that Christ really is one person, has two wills and has defined that iconography is permissable and good.  Do you see a connection to these?  They all have to do with God's relationship with Creation.  We can know about that relationship.  The procession of the Holy Spirit pertains to the internal relationship of the Trinity, something that we shall never know, never see, never understand.  Defining a point about something that humans are capable of knowing and then placing the penalty of eternal damnation on it is kind of like saying one will lose their salvation if they don't profess predestination and also profess WHY God predestines.  It's kind of nonsensical.

They leave many things undefined, which opens the door to heresies. As stated they have not defined specifically that birth control in all its forms are condemned, and it has become accepted to a certain extent by some members of their church. They also allow for divorce and remarriage up to 3 times. Because they have not defined that neither is acceptable. We don't fully understand the trinity. But, the church has determined the Filioque part of her creed, and that is that. It is not leading the masses to hell, nor is it meant to. The schismatics separated themselves from the church. And if not for Mark of Ephesus probably would still be part of our church. And this all probably could have been worked out eventually.

(06-16-2011, 11:54 AM)K3vinhood Wrote:
Melkite Wrote:It would be better for the individual Popes and other Latins who are guilty of such pride to hang a millstone around their neck and throw themselves into the ocean than to face the judgement of God over the damnation they have unnecessarily caused.

Once again, defining areas of the faith is not meant to condemn people, or to increase the number of damned. The Church is supposed to do the opposite. Certain things must be defined in order to avoid heresies. The orthodox don't clearly define very much and as you can see they have opened the door on divorce, birth control etc.

The divine liturgy can still be a mystery. Knowing the correct time when the consecration takes place does not take away from that. It also ends the argument that the orthodox seem to have that it takes place during the epiklesis.

Certain things have to be defined by the Church, it's that simple.
Melkite Wrote:The Orthodox don't argue that the consecration takes place during the epiklesis.  The Orthodox argue that the consecration takes place through the power of the Holy Spirit, not the power of the priest himself, therefore it is necessary to invoke the Holy Spirit for the priest to make it happen.  The Orthodox prostrate themselves during the words of institution, not during the epiklesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist#Orthodox Wrote:"Conventionally this change in the elements is understood to be accomplished at the Epiclesis (Greek: "invocation") by which the Holy Spirit is invoked and the consecration of the bread and wine as the Body and Blood of Christ is specifically requested, but since the anaphora as a whole is considered a unitary (albeit lengthy) prayer, no one moment within it can be readily singled out."

The moment is not defined (as far as I know) but transubstantiation has occurred by the completion of the Epiclesis. I don't understand why defining the moment of consecration is an issue. It does not take away from the sacrament whatsoever.
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Messages In This Thread
Why the Mass in Latin? - by Petertherock - 06-12-2011, 08:45 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Maldon - 06-12-2011, 10:04 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by LausTibiChriste - 06-12-2011, 10:21 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by The Curt Jester - 06-12-2011, 10:25 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-13-2011, 12:39 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Stubborn - 06-13-2011, 12:49 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by CrusaderKing - 06-13-2011, 01:18 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-13-2011, 03:41 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by jovan66102 - 06-13-2011, 04:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-14-2011, 01:32 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by GottmitunsAlex - 06-14-2011, 01:36 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 07:08 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 07:12 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Aragon - 06-14-2011, 08:43 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 09:38 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-14-2011, 11:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-14-2011, 12:04 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-14-2011, 12:11 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by jovan66102 - 06-14-2011, 12:23 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-14-2011, 03:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-14-2011, 03:45 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Scipio_a - 06-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:49 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:53 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:56 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 10:00 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-14-2011, 10:02 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 10:09 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-14-2011, 10:24 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-14-2011, 10:32 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-14-2011, 10:54 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 11:36 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-15-2011, 12:47 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 01:51 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-15-2011, 02:11 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-15-2011, 03:34 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 06:14 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-15-2011, 07:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 08:47 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-15-2011, 08:51 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-15-2011, 08:57 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:06 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:10 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:16 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:31 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:35 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:38 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-15-2011, 07:12 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-15-2011, 07:13 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 07:14 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 07:54 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 01:43 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 02:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 02:28 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 02:44 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 02:46 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:54 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 03:02 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 03:04 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 03:09 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 03:18 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 03:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 10:50 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 10:55 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 11:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 11:34 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 11:54 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 12:27 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 12:42 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 01:07 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 01:47 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 01:57 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 02:01 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 06:25 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 06:44 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 06:50 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 07:07 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 09:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 09:46 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 09:51 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Marc - 06-17-2011, 12:23 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-17-2011, 12:28 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 12:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-17-2011, 12:44 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Unum Sint - 06-17-2011, 12:50 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 06:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 06:57 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:46 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 11:09 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 12:34 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 03:44 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:30 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 08:40 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-17-2011, 08:41 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:56 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 11:15 PM



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