Why the Mass in Latin?
#78
(06-16-2011, 11:34 AM)Melkite Wrote: I'm just saying I don't understand why it was absolutely necessary to define it in the West when the East was doing just fine to let it remain a mystery.  Didn't the West ever have the concept of only defining what was necessary for salvation and letting the rest remain debatable?

This has nothing to do with "West vs. East" as if we were talking about two different churches. There's only one Catholic Church who encompasses all legitimate traditions and theological leanings but who alone has the authority to define what is the faith and what isn't. The filioque isn't debatable, you are required to profess it.

There's doctrinal development. The filioque clause is just another one of thoses cases. It was added to the creed first to combat a heresy in Spain. Eventually, over time, it became a universal custom in the west to recite the creed with it. Since the filioque expresses a truth of our faith, there should be no issue with it to begin with. As there should be no problem if tomorrow the pope unilaterally added the Immaculate Conception to the creed. The ones to make a grievous scandal out of such a benign article were the Easterners, headed by the man you dare call "St." Photius.

Their problem wasn't the filioque itself but political and ecclesiastical ambition. The same remains true today.

(06-16-2011, 02:33 AM)Melkite Wrote: But believing that whether the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone or from both the Father and the Son has never been necessary for salvation, and now Rome has made it necessary, unnecessarily putting souls in danger of hell.

Souls are not put in danger of hell for having to profess truths of faith. What you write is scandalous!

Quote:It is perfectly acceptable, since not all doctrines of the Catholic Church are included in the Creed.  The Creed without the filioque is perfectly Catholic.  Forcing people to add it when it is a stumbling block to their faith is only justifiable if they cannot be saved without accepting it, and neither Christ himself nor the Apostles ever made this issue one of importance.  While it may now be a requirement for us to accept it theologically, the fact that is so is proof positive that Rome at the time put its intellectual pride over the salvation of souls.  Now THAT is truly unacceptable.

The Apostles' Creed, which is far simpler than the Nicean Creed, is also perfectly Catholic. St. Athanasius' Creed, which is far longer that both combined, is also Catholic. That's not the point.

The filioque only became a point of contention because Photius and his partisans wanted it to become so in order to further their ambitions. Constantinople always represented the epitome of imperial and ecclesiastical pride, having usurped the rights of the old patriarchal sees of Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria against the protests of Rome. Nevertheless, this matter has already been definitely settled by the Church at the Council of Florence, which you are required to accept and profess. Certainly, you don't expect to debate things which you are required to believe, do you?

Quote:You have said before, and rightly, my faith isn't very strong.  There are others whose faith is even less strong.  While I can ponder on the filioque, and I can look at it abstractly seeing how it can possibly be true, there are many who can't, and forcing acceptance will force them out of the Church and into hell.

This is utterly absurd. The filioque is not just "possibly true", it is true and you're required to believe it.

And what kind of faith these Eastern Catholics have to begin with? According to your logic, if they really thought about it they would conclude that they're in communion with people who profess heresies (i.e., the filioque). So, these people are only Catholics because of ignorance or intellectual laxity. Amazing!

Quote:Rome needs to abandon its arrogance and return to this mindset of St. Paul.  Its preference for intellectual superiority over the salvation of souls is abhorrent, and the souls it has unnecessarily sent to hell by coldly demanding obedience on issues not necessary for salvation will likely forever count against it.  It would be better for the individual Popes and other Latins who are guilty of such pride to hang a millstone around their neck and throw themselves into the ocean than to face the judgement of God over the damnation they have unnecessarily caused.

Your insolence regarding the Church is disgusting. What pathetic folly! You condemn yourself with those words.

Why are you even Catholic, Melkite? What kind of faith do you have? You have to start asking yourself some serious questions. Pretending to be Catholic won't profit you anything. At best, you'll only poison those around you.

Quote:I already have a feeling of what your response will be, and if it is what I expect, it will just be a further example of your inability to accept personal responsibility and just pass the blame off to someone else, as usual.

Said by someone who has just maligned the Church.

Hit and run.
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Messages In This Thread
Why the Mass in Latin? - by Petertherock - 06-12-2011, 08:45 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Maldon - 06-12-2011, 10:04 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by LausTibiChriste - 06-12-2011, 10:21 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by The Curt Jester - 06-12-2011, 10:25 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-13-2011, 12:39 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Stubborn - 06-13-2011, 12:49 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by CrusaderKing - 06-13-2011, 01:18 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-13-2011, 03:41 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by jovan66102 - 06-13-2011, 04:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-14-2011, 01:32 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by GottmitunsAlex - 06-14-2011, 01:36 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 07:08 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 07:12 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Aragon - 06-14-2011, 08:43 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 09:38 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-14-2011, 11:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-14-2011, 12:04 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-14-2011, 12:11 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by jovan66102 - 06-14-2011, 12:23 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-14-2011, 03:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-14-2011, 03:45 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Scipio_a - 06-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:49 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:53 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:56 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 10:00 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-14-2011, 10:02 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 10:09 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-14-2011, 10:24 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-14-2011, 10:32 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-14-2011, 10:54 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 11:36 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-15-2011, 12:47 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 01:51 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-15-2011, 02:11 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-15-2011, 03:34 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 06:14 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-15-2011, 07:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 08:47 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-15-2011, 08:51 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-15-2011, 08:57 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:06 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:10 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:16 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:31 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:35 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:38 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-15-2011, 07:12 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-15-2011, 07:13 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 07:14 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 07:54 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 01:43 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 02:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 02:28 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 02:44 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 02:46 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:54 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 03:02 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 03:04 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 03:09 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 03:18 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 03:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 10:50 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 10:55 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 11:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 11:34 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 11:54 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 12:27 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 12:42 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 01:07 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 01:47 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 01:57 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 02:01 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 06:25 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 06:44 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 06:50 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 07:07 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 09:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 09:46 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 09:51 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Marc - 06-17-2011, 12:23 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-17-2011, 12:28 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 12:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-17-2011, 12:44 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Unum Sint - 06-17-2011, 12:50 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 06:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 06:57 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:46 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 11:09 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 12:34 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 03:44 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:30 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 08:40 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-17-2011, 08:41 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:56 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 11:15 PM



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