Saint Anthony Relic Stolen!
#31
(06-17-2011, 10:40 AM)ketchum Wrote: They found it!

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=10708&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CatholicWorldNewsFeatureStories+%28Catholic+World+News+%28on+CatholicCulture.org%29%29


"Police in Long Beach, California, have arrested Maria Solis, 41, in conjunction with the theft of a relic of St. Anthony of Padua from a parish on June 13. The relic was discovered undamaged in her living room and has been returned to the parish; the suspect is not a parishioner.

“St. Anthony is the patron saint of travelers and lost things, but today he’s also the honorary saint of the Long Beach Police Department,” said Father Jose Magana, pastor of St. Anthony’s Parish. "


Praise God

I wonder why she took it...
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#32
(06-16-2011, 10:27 PM)LuminousPax Wrote:
(06-16-2011, 09:56 AM)ketchum Wrote:
(06-15-2011, 11:13 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(06-15-2011, 12:10 PM)ketchum Wrote: If saints can bless why not justly punish? 

Source? I've never heard this said, that's all.

Does it need a source?  it makes sense to me.

I'm not aware of any scriptural examples or writings of Saints imposing punishment on people.  There are examples of angels and saints performing messenger roles and prayer intercession but, not imposing a form of justice granted by God's will.

Every possible form of justice is possessed by God (Divine Justice).  Perhaps through Distributive Justice the saints have the ability to ask for His just punishment.  In Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.”

In the Summa Question 72. Prayers with regard to the saints in heaven it says:

Quote:Reply to Objection 5. As appears from the authority of Gregory quoted above (ad 3), the saints and angels will nothing but what they see to be in the Divine will: and so neither do they pray for aught else. Nor is their prayer fruitless, since as Augustine says (De Praed. Sanct. [De Dono Persever. xxii]): "The prayers of the saints profit the predestinate, because it is perhaps pre-ordained that they shall be saved through the prayers of those who intercede for them": and consequently God also wills that what the saints see Him to will shall be fulfilled through their prayers.

Although God can fulfill the prayers of the Saints, punishment is God's alone.  We are either damned or He remits a temporal punishment.


And the angel answering, said to him: I am Gabriel, who stand before God and am sent to speak to you and to bring you these good tidings. 20 And behold, you shall be dumb and shall not be able to speak until the day wherein these things shall come to pass: because you have not believed my words, which shall be fulfilled in their time.

Saint Luke Chapter 1
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#33
quote:
"St. Anthony is the patron saint of travelers and lost things but today he's also the honorary saint of the Long Beach Police Department," Magana said. "He just wanted to come home because it belongs to everyone."
end quote.


This is not a saint to mess with, especially in Long Beach.

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#34
The theft of relics asid. Which actually has a long history in tradition one of the biggest plms I had at my shop was truck loads and trck loads od church items from Quebec showing up at my door and peplw hawking them
stained glass, pees, alters, monstrances, I saved what I could but most I had ro pass
one of the upswings or the collapse of the church in Quebec was I guess me aquiring allot of antiques alter lamps u name it
holy water fonts
but I'm not an antique trader my trade the antiquarian book trade differs greatly from the typical antique market anyway
my heft sank every time th truck fulll of church belongings would deie off to unload on Godless hawkers whom wpuld do God knows what with th items
my main thrust is and was saving ou catholoc treasures in codexe form. But I ended up with allot or church interiors too
Anyhooo
sip
back ro rhe thread
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#35
(06-17-2011, 11:09 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: The theft of relics asid. Which actually has a long history in tradition one of the biggest plms I had at my shop was truck loads and trck loads od church items from Quebec showing up at my door and peplw hawking them
stained glass, pees, alters, monstrances, I saved what I could but most I had ro pass
one of the upswings or the collapse of the church in Quebec was I guess me aquiring allot of antiques alter lamps u name it
holy water fonts
but I'm not an antique trader my trade the antiquarian book trade differs greatly from the typical antique market anyway
my heft sank every time th truck fulll of church belongings would deie off to unload on Godless hawkers whom wpuld do God knows what with th items
my main thrust is and was saving ou catholoc treasures in codexe form. But I ended up with allot or church interiors too
Anyhooo
sip
back ro rhe thread

Would it be wrong to keep a relic if the relic was un wanted etc?  If a monstrance fell into my hands I'd end up giving it to my church.
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#36
i dunno if it would be wrong
motive matters
u must understand those who are buying Church's off in Quebec only want the constituent parts of an item they can sell. an example
i saved a missale romanum A.D 1590. no big deal but crux of it was the bindings. with some form of jewels present on the front binding in a shape of a cross.
re bound A.D. 1830. monastic. Moroccan gold tooled, gaufarred AEG. by the time i saved it it was already chopped for its jewels and what ever gold tooling could be takin and was bein used as a coaster for tea when my eyes spotted it at a colleagues home.
rosaries of any age will be disassembled for the beads and monstrances or any form of gold that can be sold or melted down will
so saving our treasures from oblivion wouldn't be wrong.of course those are not relics but the antique trade is an easy trade to hawk fakes in.
the antiquarian book trade is not.
i eyeballed a cathedral alter lamp from France but by he time i showed with the 4000 bucks some one already purchased it to melt down
it was brass and gold and huge
dunno what i would of done with it
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#37
(06-17-2011, 10:50 AM)ketchum Wrote:
(06-16-2011, 10:27 PM)LuminousPax Wrote:
(06-16-2011, 09:56 AM)ketchum Wrote:
(06-15-2011, 11:13 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(06-15-2011, 12:10 PM)ketchum Wrote: If saints can bless why not justly punish? 

Source? I've never heard this said, that's all.

Does it need a source?  it makes sense to me.

I'm not aware of any scriptural examples or writings of Saints imposing punishment on people.  There are examples of angels and saints performing messenger roles and prayer intercession but, not imposing a form of justice granted by God's will.

Every possible form of justice is possessed by God (Divine Justice).  Perhaps through Distributive Justice the saints have the ability to ask for His just punishment.  In Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.”

In the Summa Question 72. Prayers with regard to the saints in heaven it says:

Quote:Reply to Objection 5. As appears from the authority of Gregory quoted above (ad 3), the saints and angels will nothing but what they see to be in the Divine will: and so neither do they pray for aught else. Nor is their prayer fruitless, since as Augustine says (De Praed. Sanct. [De Dono Persever. xxii]): "The prayers of the saints profit the predestinate, because it is perhaps pre-ordained that they shall be saved through the prayers of those who intercede for them": and consequently God also wills that what the saints see Him to will shall be fulfilled through their prayers.

Although God can fulfill the prayers of the Saints, punishment is God's alone.  We are either damned or He remits a temporal punishment.


And the angel answering, said to him: I am Gabriel, who stand before God and am sent to speak to you and to bring you these good tidings. 20 And behold, you shall be dumb and shall not be able to speak until the day wherein these things shall come to pass: because you have not believed my words, which shall be fulfilled in their time.

Saint Luke Chapter 1

Yes, this story in scripture is the one that gave me pause when I was thinking about a saint instituting a just punishment on a person.  I see this a bit differently in that he 'asked' for a sign, his doubt was answered and this was in accordance in fulfilling the 'messenger role' within the office of angels.  I guess this could either be a reward, punishment or both in accordance with divine will depending how view it. 
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#38
(06-16-2011, 09:56 AM)ketchum Wrote:
(06-15-2011, 11:13 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(06-15-2011, 12:10 PM)ketchum Wrote: If saints can bless why not justly punish? 

Source? I've never heard this said, that's all.

Does it need a source?  it makes sense to me.

I would say it needs a source. God could send an angel to smite someone, but a saint? Doesn't make sense to me.
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