Variations in SSPX and diocesan Mass
#11
(06-21-2011, 11:39 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: The new translation does not go into effect until Advent.

Parts of Oceania are early-adopting. Canada might be later.
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#12
(06-21-2011, 03:31 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(06-21-2011, 11:39 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: The new translation does not go into effect until Advent.

Parts of Oceania are early-adopting. Canada might be later.

Oops, I neither remembered that nor that Raskolnikov is an Aussie. I wonder if the priests there are remembering to do use the new translation.
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#13
(06-21-2011, 09:55 AM)Aragon Wrote: 1. We stand for the entirety of the Gloria at my usual Mass but at the SSPX the congregation sat as soon as the priest left the altar. Is this usually done?

Two conflicting principles at work. One principle is that if you're singing, you ought to stand. For example, if you're singing the Sanctus, you should not kneel until the singing is done. Your diocesan Mass has the people following the choir's postures. Your SSPX Mass has the congregation following the priest's postures instead, which is sensible, but I believe following  the choir's postures is more "correct". Then again, remember that there are no congregational rubrics. It's just a matter of what one thinks is more appropriate.

Quote:2. After the consecration the altar boys recited the confiteor for a second time and the priest gave them absolution. I've never seen this practice before.

A relic of pre-1962 Missals. When Communion was administered during Mass, the rite of Communion was to be inserted into the liturgy. Since you could do the Communion rite outside of Mass, that Confiteor was not an addition. In the really old days, though, Communion of the people at Mass wasn't the norm. The priest would go straight from his Communion to the ablutions. Thus, the people's Communion is something like an interruption of the liturgy.

The 1962 Missal probably got rid of it as what was seen as an unnecessary repetition. It'll seem like one at low Mass, but in sung or solemn Mass the people can't really hear it the first time around, so the "second" Confiteor can be said to represent them. I think getting rid of it was a bad idea.

Quote:3. At the diocesan Mass the entire congregation recites the "domine, non sum dignus" while at the SSPX chapel only the priest recited this prayer.

Matter of custom, or perhaps the literacy of the congregation. The congregation can also recite the whole second Confiteor if it's used. I've seen a video of the SSPX sung Mass at their "flagship church" in Paris, and the whole congregation sang and recited pretty much everything they could.

I got the impression from other FishEaters that American SSPX'ers do less verbal participation at Mass, and European SSPX'ers do more.
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#14
We have a new translation currently in use in New Zealand. "Et cum spiritu tuo" is translated "and with your spirit", but the words of consecration for the wine still have "for all". The few times that I've been to the NO since I decided to return to the Church I've heard some people say "and with your spirit" and others say "and also with you".

In my experience, the SSPX seems to be much more traditional than diocesan TLMs. SSPX priests always wear the maniple, while diocesan priests may not. SSPX priests often wear a lacy alb and a fiddleback chasuble. And with the SSPX you know that the sermons are going to be good and traditional.

Aragon, if you have a SSPX chapel in easy reach of you, then I'd recommend going there on Sundays rather than to your diocesan TLM. I have a diocesan TLM I could go to, but I prefer to take the train to the SSPX chapel.
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#15
One thing that bothers me about SSPX high Masses is how much the congregation stands during the Canon. I was always taught to be on my knees for the most solemn part of the Mass. They don't even kneel at the Agnus Dei, which is a prayer of humility! Last time I was there for the Ascension they had someone knocking to signal when to kneel, etc. I don't see why it needs to be so regimented.
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#16
As other people have stated the rubrics do not mention the laity at all so custom dictates their actions and custom varies from parish to parish. Technically, if people want to be in the middle of the aisle having a ho-down there is nothing specific that forbids it (note: the novus ordo does forbid such actions!)

Masses in which people verbally respond are a recent phenomenon that began in the early 20th century (at least for this form of the mass). Pope Pius XII officially sanctioned dialogue masses but some people remain quite opposed. I don't think it really makes sense for the laity to say anything during the mass so I always keep my mouth shut during mass. 
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#17
(06-21-2011, 05:01 PM)piabee Wrote: One thing that bothers me about SSPX high Masses is how much the congregation stands during the Canon. I was always taught to be on my knees for the most solemn part of the Mass. They don't even kneel at the Agnus Dei, which is a prayer of humility! Last time I was there for the Ascension they had someone knocking to signal when to kneel, etc. I don't see why it needs to be so regimented.

I would bet that there is some diversity on this issue between different SSPX chapels.
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#18
At my ICRSS church (St. Francis de Sales Oratory), the lay faithful sit along with the priest during the chanted Gloria and Credo, but the liturgical choir does so, as well.  The choir is directed to change posture by use of a wooden clapper, as piabee described.  The lay people never follow it, however -- only the choir.  (I may be incorrect, but I recall being told once that the Caeremoniale Episcoporum specifies its use?)

We also have a third Confiteor before Communion, and the priest says the "Domine non sum dignus" aloud, while the servers say it in a low voice, if at all.  I have no idea what the lay faithful do, as I almost never sit out there. :P

I interpret it a different way, piabee:  During the Mass, the Blessed Sacrament present on the Altar is not considered to be liturgically "exposed".  Therefore, we kneel for the mystery of the Consecration, and we kneel when the tabernacle is opened (or at some point right before distribution of Holy Communion); otherwise, we stand, as there is no liturgical reason to be kneeling.  Personally, the choir rubrics make sense to me more than the customs of the lay faithful.

All of the above rubrical commentary is open to correction, if anyone finds a fault in it. :)  Thank you.

In Christo Rege,
    -Steven
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#19
(06-21-2011, 03:45 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(06-21-2011, 03:31 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(06-21-2011, 11:39 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: The new translation does not go into effect until Advent.

Parts of Oceania are early-adopting. Canada might be later.

Oops, I neither remembered that nor that Raskolnikov is an Aussie. I wonder if the priests there are remembering to do use the new translation.

Yes, the priests are using the new translation in N.O. parishes. Not all of them just yet, but most. Some parishes are holding out for as long as they can.

(06-21-2011, 02:45 PM)OSanctissima Wrote:
(06-21-2011, 10:51 AM)Raskolnikov Wrote:
(06-21-2011, 09:55 AM)Aragon Wrote: 3. At the diocesan Mass the entire congregation recites the "domine, non sum dignus" while at the SSPX chapel only the priest recited this prayer.

Oh man. That reminds me... Today I went to a NO Mass to see what the new translation is like. It's almost impossible for me now to resist the urge to recite this part three times in Latin; yet even as I recited it in English, I noticed that the whole congregation was still using the old translation for this response. Stubborn elderly people....

I opine that you may have some elderly people at the services you attend, but your assumption that it is primarily the elderly who are stubborn irritates me, an elderly man!  I have been attending Mass in Latin whenever possible since 1964 when the NO became routine at military chapels.  You owe an apology to all the elderly who do care!

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend, but perhaps you have misinterpreted me. At the Mass I was attending I was the only 'young person' there, and I was surrounded by much older people. As the priest said 'The Lord be with you,' another priest standing in the sanctuary was leading the people in the new responses. He said into the microphone 'and with your spirit' but all the people around me said 'and also with you.' This happened every single time. They were all elderly - but perhaps I should not have included that detail because I do not mean to infer that "elderly people are stubborn." I apologise if my previous post seems to imply that.

Unfortunately it seems that many people the same generation who so radically imposed the liturgical changes in the 70's are now up in arms and stubbornly refusing to comply with the liturgical changes of 2011. It was fine for them to totally dismantle tradition and desacralise the sacred liturgy, but now then can't handle changing a few words. 
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#20
(06-21-2011, 05:01 PM)piabee Wrote: One thing that bothers me about SSPX high Masses is how much the congregation stands during the Canon. I was always taught to be on my knees for the most solemn part of the Mass. They don't even kneel at the Agnus Dei, which is a prayer of humility! Last time I was there for the Ascension they had someone knocking to signal when to kneel, etc. I don't see why it needs to be so regimented.

As I said in my previous post, if the congregation is standing while singing the Sanctus, that's more "correct" in my opinion. Then you kneel after the singing is done. Likewise, you stand while singing the Agnus Dei. If I recall correctly, the Agnus Dei is sung at solemn Mass while the ministers are exchanging the sign of peace, so people are supposed to be standing anyway.

But SSPX practice varies from place to place.
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