Variations in SSPX and diocesan Mass
#21
How uniform is the TLM, really?  Is the idea of an absolutely identical worldwide Mass a rose-colored trad myth?

I'm not in a position to know for sure, but I'd wager that even pre-NO, there must have been variations in Mass, parish to parish (I exclude for purposes of discussion Eastern Rite and also those monastic orders with permission to celebrate specific forms).

As the real Mass, slowly comes back, don't we have to expect variation?  Most new priests won't have seen it in the old days, as it were; and wouldn't there need to be minor changes to accommodate saying TLM in a building set up for NO?.....freestanding altar, no altar railing, misplaced tabernacle, etc.?
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#22
(06-22-2011, 04:19 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: As the real Mass, slowly comes back, don't we have to expect variation?  Most new priests won't have seen it in the old days, as it were; and wouldn't there need to be minor changes to accommodate saying TLM in a building set up for NO?.....freestanding altar, no altar railing, misplaced tabernacle, etc.?

Fortunately, there are already provisions for all 3 of those "abnormalities" in the pre-Vatican II rubrics. Indeed, the freestanding altar is technically preferred.
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#23
(06-22-2011, 04:19 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: How uniform is the TLM, really?  Is the idea of an absolutely identical worldwide Mass a rose-colored trad myth?

The TLM is pretty uniform when it comes to the actions of the Priest.  The rubrics are incredibly detailed as to what the priest must be doing at all times.  Although it is preferable to have mass in a proper setting, mass can be said on top of a jeep in the battlefield, but that doesn't change the nature of the mass.  The rubrics don't really mention anything about what's going on outside the holy of hoilies, so here you will see a lot of variety. 
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#24
(06-21-2011, 05:08 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Masses in which people verbally respond are a recent phenomenon that began in the early 20th century (at least for this form of the mass). Pope Pius XII officially sanctioned dialogue masses but some people remain quite opposed. I don't think it really makes sense for the laity to say anything during the mass so I always keep my mouth shut during mass. 

A dialogue low Mass is one thing. That's truly an innovation, just as the low Mass in general was an innovation once. But a congregationally sung Mass is not an innovation at all. Pius X and Pius XI promoted it, along with Pius XII.

Pope Pius X, Tra le sollecitudini Wrote:“Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times.”

Pope Pius XI, Divini Cultus Wrote:“History tells us how in the ancient basilicas, where bishop, clergy and people alternately sang the divine praises, the liturgical chant played no small part in converting many barbarians to Christianity and civilization. It was in the churches that heretics came to understand more fully the meaning of the communion of saints; thus the Emperor Valens, an Arian, being present at Mass celebrated by St. Basil, was overcome by an extraordinary seizure and fainted. At Milan, St. Ambrose was accused by heretics of attracting the crowds by means of liturgical chants. It was due to these that St. Augustine made up his mind to become a Christian. It was in the churches, finally, where practically the whole city formed a great joint choir, that the workers, builders, artists, sculptors and writers gained from the liturgy that deep knowledge of theology which is now so apparent in the monuments of the Middle Ages.”

With those words in mind, congregational singing should make perfect sense.
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#25
(06-22-2011, 04:49 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(06-21-2011, 05:08 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Masses in which people verbally respond are a recent phenomenon that began in the early 20th century (at least for this form of the mass). Pope Pius XII officially sanctioned dialogue masses but some people remain quite opposed. I don't think it really makes sense for the laity to say anything during the mass so I always keep my mouth shut during mass. 

A dialogue low Mass is one thing. That's truly an innovation, just as the low Mass in general was an innovation once. But a congregationally sung Mass is not an innovation at all. Pius X and Pius XI promoted it, along with Pius XII.

Pope Pius X, Tra le sollecitudini Wrote:“Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times.”

Pope Pius XI, Divini Cultus Wrote:“History tells us how in the ancient basilicas, where bishop, clergy and people alternately sang the divine praises, the liturgical chant played no small part in converting many barbarians to Christianity and civilization. It was in the churches that heretics came to understand more fully the meaning of the communion of saints; thus the Emperor Valens, an Arian, being present at Mass celebrated by St. Basil, was overcome by an extraordinary seizure and fainted. At Milan, St. Ambrose was accused by heretics of attracting the crowds by means of liturgical chants. It was due to these that St. Augustine made up his mind to become a Christian. It was in the churches, finally, where practically the whole city formed a great joint choir, that the workers, builders, artists, sculptors and writers gained from the liturgy that deep knowledge of theology which is now so apparent in the monuments of the Middle Ages.”


With those words in mind, congregational singing should make perfect sense.

I wasn't so much talking about singing but as repeating the responses.  This said....I don't sing either during mass!
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#26
(06-22-2011, 04:52 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: I wasn't so much talking about singing but as repeating the responses.  This said....I don't sing either during mass!

That's fine. But I always encourage people to sing at Mass. When my schola sings at a church, we sometimes provide printouts of the Ordinary of the Mass in square notation. This is keeping in line with what the early 20th century popes wanted with regard to having more congregational participation in chant, as it was in the ancient Church.
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#27
(06-22-2011, 05:01 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(06-22-2011, 04:52 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: I wasn't so much talking about singing but as repeating the responses.  This said....I don't sing either during mass!

That's fine. But I always encourage people to sing at Mass. When my schola sings at a church, we sometimes provide printouts of the Ordinary of the Mass in square notation. This is keeping in line with what the early 20th century popes wanted with regard to having more congregational participation in chant, as it was in the ancient Church.

But you see....very few Catholics can sing well....
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#28
As for dialogue low Mass, I'm not opposed to it by any means but it makes less sense than congregationally sung Mass. Low Mass was envisioned originally to involve only one priest and one server. Now, since it's a regular Sunday experience for a lot of trads whether we like it or not, I think it makes sense to adapt low Mass to have a congregational reciting of things like the Gloria and the Credo. But having the whole congregation recite the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar is just strange. Those prayers clearly were meant for the deacon and subdeacon of the Mass. They are clerical.
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#29
(06-21-2011, 10:51 AM)Raskolnikov Wrote:
(06-21-2011, 09:55 AM)Aragon Wrote: 3. At the diocesan Mass the entire congregation recites the "domine, non sum dignus" while at the SSPX chapel only the priest recited this prayer.

Oh man. That reminds me... Today I went to a NO Mass to see what the new translation is like. It's almost impossible for me now to resist the urge to recite this part three times in Latin; yet even as I recited it in English, I noticed that the whole congregation was still using the old translation for this response. Stubborn elderly people....
lucky australian
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#30
(06-22-2011, 05:03 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: But you see....very few Catholics can sing well....

Yeah, I've read "Why Catholics Can't Sing: The Culture of Catholicism and the Triumph of Bad Taste" by Thomas Day. http://www.amazon.com/Why-Catholics-Cant...0824511530

It's a depressing read, but it's really all in people's heads. If you promote a culture of good singing, then Catholics will sing just as well as Baptists and Episcopalians.

I would start with requiring all boys and men who want to be altar servers to first sing in the schola, and to sing in the schola on all days when they're not serving. The sooner we see the relationship between singiing and serving, the better the world will be.
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