Variations in SSPX and diocesan Mass
#61
(06-23-2011, 06:20 AM)Jacafamala Wrote: Why restrict the choir to all males? I can see where it'd be logical at a priory or the like, where they're all men anyway.... Do you all have chapels that are big enough for an all male choir? In my chapel, there aren't enough.

For the same reason that all altar servers should be male. Even if the server isn't actually a cleric, he's performing a clerical role. I've been saying on the thread several times that there's a unity between singing (in the choir) and serving at Mass. Especially when singing the Propers of the Mass.

Pope Pius X, Tra le sollecitudini Wrote:12. With the exception of the melodies proper to the celebrant at the altar and to the ministers, which must be always sung in Gregorian Chant, and without accompaniment of the organ, all the rest of the liturgical chant belongs to the choir of levites, and, therefore, singers in the church, even when they are laymen, are really taking the place of the ecclesiastical choir. Hence the music rendered by them must, at least for the greater part, retain the character of choral music.

Quote:13. On the same principle it follows that singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that therefore women, being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir. Whenever, then, it is desired to employ the acute voices of sopranos and contraltos, these parts must be taken by boys, according to the most ancient usage of the Church.

14. Finally, only men of known piety and probity of life are to be admitted to form part of the choir of a church, and these men should by their modest and devout bearing during the liturgical functions show that they are worthy of the holy office they exercise. It will also be fitting that singers while singing in church wear the ecclesiastical habit and surplice, and that they be hidden behind gratings when the choir is excessively open to the public gaze.


MichaelNZ Wrote:I remember hearing on a sermon from AudioSancto that the choir stalls were for when choirs were made up of clerics.

Yes. And I hope one day that every parish has a full staff of clerics, including men in minor orders. But one doesn't need to be a literal cleric to sit in the stalls, anymore than one must be a cleric to serve at Mass. Also, in monasteries men and women sit in choir stalls even if they're not clerics. Or in universities, etc.
Reply
#62
(06-23-2011, 12:33 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: Yes. And I hope one day that every parish has a full staff of clerics, including men in minor orders. But one doesn't need to be a literal cleric to sit in the stalls, anymore than one must be a cleric to serve at Mass. Also, in monasteries men and women sit in choir stalls even if they're not clerics. Or in universities, etc.

Was it possible for men just to purposely just get minor orders? I thought minor orders were mostly there for seminarians?
Reply
#63
(06-23-2011, 05:56 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Was it possible for men just to purposely just get minor orders? I thought minor orders were mostly there for seminarians?

The minor orders existed for a thousand years before the seminary system was invented. The seminary as we know it today was a product of the Counter-Reformation to instill more rigorous formation in the clergy than had existed in the Renaissance. Before then, new priests were formed by apprenticeships or drawn from the ranks of boys in the cathedral schools. When the universities were established, they of course became a source of Europe's more educated clergy, but not every priest was ordained through that system.

Until the later Middle Ages, there were permanent deacons, subdeacons and men in minor orders in the West. There are a number of reasons why this changed, but the Council of Trent clearly envisioned a return to men permanently in the lower grades of Holy Orders. "Restore the minor orders!" isn't just something I made up, but something stated in the Trent decrees.

Trent, 23rd Session Wrote:CHAPTER XVII.

In what manner the exercise of the minor orders is to be restored.

That the functions of holy orders, from the deacon to the janitor,-which functions have been laudably received in the Church from the times of the apostles, and which have been for some time interrupted in very many places,-may be again brought into use in accordance with the sacred canons; and that they may not be traduced by heretics as useless; the holy Synod, burning with the desire of restoring the pristine usage, ordains that, for the future, such functions shall not be exercised but by those who are actually in the said orders; and It exhorts in the Lord all and each of the prelates of the churches, and commands them, that it be their care to restore the said [Page 187] functions, as far as it can be conveniently done, in the cathedral, collegiate, and parochial churches of their dioceses, where the number of the people and the revenues of the church can support it; and, to those who exercise those functions, they shall assign salaries out of some part of the revenues of any simple benefices, or those of the fabric of the church,-if the funds allow of it,-or out of the revenues of both together, of which stipends they may, if negligent, be mulcted in a part, or be wholly deprived thereof, according to the judgment of the Ordinary. And if there should not be unmarried clerics at hand to exercise the functions of the four minor orders, their place may be supplied by married clerics of approved life; provided they have not been twice married, be competent to discharge the said duties, and wear the tonsure and the clerical dress in church.

The last part interestingly stipulates that even married men may be admitted to minor orders. And furthermore, that altar servers in local churches ought to actually be ordained acolytes.
Reply
#64
(06-23-2011, 06:03 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(06-23-2011, 05:56 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Was it possible for men just to purposely just get minor orders? I thought minor orders were mostly there for seminarians?

The minor orders existed for a thousand years before the seminary system was invented. The seminary as we know it today was a product of the Counter-Reformation to instill more rigorous formation in the clergy than had existed in the Renaissance. Before then, new priests were formed by apprenticeships or drawn from the ranks of boys in the cathedral schools. When the universities were established, they of course became a source of Europe's more educated clergy, but not every priest was ordained through that system.

Until the later Middle Ages, there were permanent deacons, subdeacons and men in minor orders in the West. There are a number of reasons why this changed, but the Council of Trent clearly envisioned a return to men permanently in the lower grades of Holy Orders. "Restore the minor orders!" isn't just something I made up, but something stated in the Trent decrees.

Trent, 23rd Session Wrote:CHAPTER XVII.

In what manner the exercise of the minor orders is to be restored.

That the functions of holy orders, from the deacon to the janitor,-which functions have been laudably received in the Church from the times of the apostles, and which have been for some time interrupted in very many places,-may be again brought into use in accordance with the sacred canons; and that they may not be traduced by heretics as useless; the holy Synod, burning with the desire of restoring the pristine usage, ordains that, for the future, such functions shall not be exercised but by those who are actually in the said orders; and It exhorts in the Lord all and each of the prelates of the churches, and commands them, that it be their care to restore the said [Page 187] functions, as far as it can be conveniently done, in the cathedral, collegiate, and parochial churches of their dioceses, where the number of the people and the revenues of the church can support it; and, to those who exercise those functions, they shall assign salaries out of some part of the revenues of any simple benefices, or those of the fabric of the church,-if the funds allow of it,-or out of the revenues of both together, of which stipends they may, if negligent, be mulcted in a part, or be wholly deprived thereof, according to the judgment of the Ordinary. And if there should not be unmarried clerics at hand to exercise the functions of the four minor orders, their place may be supplied by married clerics of approved life; provided they have not been twice married, be competent to discharge the said duties, and wear the tonsure and the clerical dress in church.

The last part interestingly stipulates that even married men may be admitted to minor orders. And furthermore, that altar servers in local churches ought to actually be ordained acolytes.

So when Paul VI suppressed minor orders they had been in decline for centuries? Or were there lots of married men who had minor orders pre-Vatican II? Not pushing anything, just curious! Are minor orders considered holy orders?
Reply
#65
(06-23-2011, 06:06 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: So when Paul VI suppressed minor orders they had been in decline for centuries? Or were there lots of married men who had minor orders pre-Vatican II?

No, by the 20th century the minor orders were confined to seminary walls as stepping stones to priesthood. Some of Trent's decrees went ignored entirely or couldn't be implemented because the Church had been distracted by Protestantism. In France, the first prelate to implement the Tridentine reforms rigorously was Cardinal Richelieu, believe it or not, and that was many decades after the Council closed.

Quote: Not pushing anything, just curious! Are minor orders considered holy orders?

Classifying the degrees of Orders is a tough thing. The highest three (bishop, presbyter, deacon) are considered to be of divine institution, and the rest (subdeacon, acolyte, exorcist, lector and porter) are of ecclesiastical institution. The subdeacon is still a major order, though, because it entailed a promise of celibacy and the receipt of benefices. Complicated stuff. Pope Paul VI, of course, axed the minor orders and the subdiaconate. They now only exist within traditional clerical communities.


But I think it can definitely be said that men in minor orders are clerics.
Reply
#66
(06-23-2011, 06:13 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: They now only exist within traditional clerical communities.

But, as part of the seminarian system?
Reply
#67
(06-23-2011, 06:29 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: But, as part of the seminarian system?

Correct, except for the Clerical Oblates of the Institute of Christ the King. They are brothers who serve the ICRSS, some of whom are ordained to the minor orders, subdiaconate or diaconate, permanently. Their website is very interesting: http://www.institute-christ-king.org/vocations/oblates/

There aren't enough men in trad-dom willing to undertake celibate vocations to make the Clerical Oblates a reality everywhere, unfortunately. I am personally in favor of ordaining all lay altar servers, chanters, lectors and such into the minor orders; perhaps using some sort of summer curriculum at seminaries for boys/men to train them in what they need to know.
Reply
#68
It should first be stated that THERE ARE RUBRICS FOR HOW THE FAITHFUL SHOULD ACT AT MASS; they generally follow those for the clergy in choir. This can be read in The Celebration of Mass: A Study of the Roman Missal (http://www.angeluspress.org/oscatalog/it...f-the-mass) by J.B. O'Connell () and others (e.g., Fortescue - http://www.angeluspress.org/oscatalog/it...-described, and Callewaert - http://romanitaspress.com/de_sacra_litur...ewaert.htm).

As for the theological and philosophical reasons for why this is done, cf. this excellent article:  http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/attend...moulin.pdf.
Reply
#69
(06-24-2011, 10:38 AM)RomanitasPress Wrote: It should first be stated that THERE ARE RUBRICS FOR HOW THE FAITHFUL SHOULD ACT AT MASS; they generally follow those for the clergy in choir. This can be read in The Celebration of Mass: A Study of the Roman Missal (http://www.angeluspress.org/oscatalog/it...f-the-mass) by J.B. O'Connell () and others (e.g., Fortescue - http://www.angeluspress.org/oscatalog/it...-described, and Callewaert - http://romanitaspress.com/de_sacra_litur...ewaert.htm).

As for the theological and philosophical reasons for why this is done, cf. this excellent article:  http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/attend...moulin.pdf.

But if that is true, why do you quote articles and studies?  Why not just quote the rubrics?

You referenced valuable sources, but they seem to go by certain (good and true) interpretative principles: the congregation should be like the servers sometimes, or should be like the choir sometimes, or should be silent and and kneel at certain obvious times, should mimic the priest's actions sometimes and not other times, and so on ...

but I don't think there are any rubrics actually telling the congreation to do or not do anything ...
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)