Earth IS Center of Universe?
#31
(07-06-2011, 10:03 PM)kingtheoden Wrote:
(07-06-2011, 09:57 PM)romanaround Wrote: I hate to break it to you guys but evolution and the existence of God are not mutually exclusive.

If geocentrism were be accepted by science tomorrow (for the sake of argument), that won't make a lick of a difference to atheists who already reject God despite the proof we already have in creation.

You are just wrong.

On what? That evolution and belief in God are not mutually exclusive (iow, you can believe in both), or that atheists won't believe in God even if geocentrism was proven by science?
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#32
(07-07-2011, 12:40 AM)timjp77 Wrote:
(07-06-2011, 12:40 PM)richness of tradition Wrote: 'Some Catholics maintain Galileo was wrong':

I think the  article means the Catholic priest Copernicus and not Galileo. It wasn't Galileo who put forth the idea that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

No, the writer means Galileo.  Copernicus perhaps was ordained a Priest, but others believe he received only minor orders.

Copernicus did propose a comprehensive heliocentric model, but Galileo began the dark cult of Sciencism by explicitly stating that Scripture should be ignored whenever the latest and greatest data suggested a conflict.  

If we were to accept that Earth is the center of the universe, we then see with force the truth of God and His work.  In addition, it causes us to stive for things of higher order (virtues, social order, and salvation) rather than 'for the moment money grubbing.
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#33
(07-07-2011, 12:50 AM)romanaround Wrote:
(07-06-2011, 10:03 PM)kingtheoden Wrote:
(07-06-2011, 09:57 PM)romanaround Wrote: I hate to break it to you guys but evolution and the existence of God are not mutually exclusive.

If geocentrism were be accepted by science tomorrow (for the sake of argument), that won't make a lick of a difference to atheists who already reject God despite the proof we already have in creation.

You are just wrong.

On what? That evolution and belief in God are not mutually exclusive (iow, you can believe in both), or that atheists won't believe in God even if geocentrism was proven by science?

I meant the latter, but actually the former is wrong too. 

Pope Pius XII was a deeply holy man and a giant compared to the recent  Succssors to Peter, but he made mistakes and permitting the asinine idea of trans species evolution was a mistake.  This would uproot traditional understanding of the Fall from Grace, a time after which death entered the world.  If those trilobites died millions of years before death entered the world, well we have a logical problem here.  Different topic though.
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#34
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/geocentrism.html

The above site will give you the traditional Catholic view of geocentrism.
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#35
(07-07-2011, 12:46 AM)kingtheoden Wrote:
(07-06-2011, 11:42 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-06-2011, 02:12 PM)dan hunter Wrote: Why wouldn't the Earth be the Centre of the Universe?

Why would it?

Because Christ became man on Earth, suffered persecution and brutal death on this Earth, and rose again on this Earth - all for the redemption of His chief steward of creation, man.  Scripture and patristics strongly indicate Earth as the center of all creation.

Regarding the the Sun's composition: these are models that should be investigated but not so heavily relied upon.  It is absolutely impossible to verify the convection model because the theory works on a scale of millions of years.  Furthermore, there is iron clad repression of other models (such as an electrically based Sun rather than nuclear fusion as the primary energy production.)

Why would the Earth need to be the physical center of the universe in order for Christ to come here?  Where in Scripture does it strongly indicate that we are the center?
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#36
(07-06-2011, 11:50 PM)Melkite Wrote: Well, the Sun is made up mostly of hydrogen and helium, right?  So, since hydrogen and helium float, and that's what the Sun is made of, that would make the Sun lighter than the Earth, so that would explain why the Sun orbits around the Earth.   :bubbles:

Okay, I'll give you that one, but now comes the hard part for you.  Let's throw Mars into the picture.  Mars rotates around the sun in both the geocentric and heliocentric models.  This motion is fully consistent with the laws of gravity and Newtons laws of motion in the heliocentric model.  However, this is not the case with the geocentric model.  You will not be able to just change the mass of Mars and get it to follow the path through space that it currently does.  If you say it is of less mass than the sun and therefore it should rotate around the sun, you run into the problem that if it is of less mass than the sun, it also must be of less mass than the earth.  If you accept that the law of gravity and Newton's laws are true, then Mars should rotate around the Earth, because Earth is more massive than the sun and Mars.

I hope this helps to illustrate the main point that I am trying to make.  You cannot just say that you accept geocentrism because you can define the paths of motion of the planets and sun with the earth fixed in the center.  What you also must realize is that when you adopt the geocentric model, you are also rejecting all of the current physical laws that we use to define the way our universe behaves.  Meaning geocentrists reject gravity and Newtons Laws.  In the geocentric world, there is no uniform set of physical laws that describe how our universe works.  The laws have to continually change in order to get the planets to move in the way that they do with the earth fixed in the center.
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#37
(07-06-2011, 11:50 PM)Melkite Wrote: Well, the Sun is made up mostly of hydrogen and helium, right?  So, since hydrogen and helium float, and that's what the Sun is made of, that would make the Sun lighter than the Earth, so that would explain why the Sun orbits around the Earth.   :bubbles:

I don't know if that was a joke, but it seems to have been taken seriously, so I'll address it.

Hydrogen and Helium float on earth because they are lighter than air, and so rise up (like you do in a swimming pool).  But they still have Mass and still participate in gravitational interactions.  And there is a LOT of that stuff in the sun, making it very massive compared to earth.  The fact that those elements are lighter than earth's air is irrelevant for hydrogen and helium that is not on earth.
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#38
Faith is a gift from God, people who lack Faith aren't going to get it from disproving a scientific theory.
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#39
(07-07-2011, 11:27 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(07-06-2011, 11:50 PM)Melkite Wrote: Well, the Sun is made up mostly of hydrogen and helium, right?  So, since hydrogen and helium float, and that's what the Sun is made of, that would make the Sun lighter than the Earth, so that would explain why the Sun orbits around the Earth.   :bubbles:

I don't know if that was a joke, but it seems to have been taken seriously, so I'll address it.

Hydrogen and Helium float on earth because they are lighter than air, and so rise up (like you do in a swimming pool).  But they still have Mass and still participate in gravitational interactions.  And there is a LOT of that stuff in the sun, making it very massive compared to earth.  The fact that those elements are lighter than earth's air is irrelevant for hydrogen and helium that is not on earth.

:)  It was a joke.  Apparently, my sarcasm can run a few levels deeper than what is immediately perceivable.  The blowing bubbles emoticon was the closest I could find to represent being blissfully oblivious.  I'm a heliocentrist.  God created us with rational brains that can learn about the environment in which we exist.  So I was sarcastically commenting in defense of geocentrism in a way that mocks what I perceive to be the jaw-dropping willful ignorance of people to maintain geocentrism when there isn't much real evidence to support it.  Heliocentrism doesn't attack the Faith.  There's no reason to make a dichotomy where one doesn't naturally exist.
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#40
(07-07-2011, 09:52 AM)Melkite Wrote: Why would the Earth need to be the physical center of the universe in order for Christ to come here?  Where in Scripture does it strongly indicate that we are the center?

Melkite, did you read what I wrote?  I gave you a list of reasons why it would on an intuitive basis make sense for Earth to be the center of things.

In real life, the focus is almost always centered in anything.  It's a natural law or order.  While one could conceive of an odd quirk that God would create His ultimate work of Earth and man but not center the heavens around it, it seems unlikely.  Rather, it sounds a lot like crackhead parish councils that move the Tabernacle to a side room, violently disrupting the natural centering of a church.

Furthermore, heliocentrism was promoted to attack the Church.  So it did originate from those who questioned or directly assaulted (as in Galileo's case) the Church's station.

Andrago - You're right.  This would upturn a lot of 'settled science' but so what?  So called intellectual giants like Einstein and Hawking are notorious for total reversals, incomplete explanations, and just plain speculation. 

Good Catholics must study mainstream physics because it is extremely useful and aids mental development.  But never ever should we place our faith in a theoretical model that does break.  Ultimately it is far more sensible that Earth is the center of creation, and there is legitimate hard science to back this.  Furthermore, it is a theologically difficultly to suggest the Fathers and Doctors were all wrong about this -  that we should instead place our trust in deviants and those who hated our Blessed Lord.
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