New GIRM closes loophole. Haugen, Haas and the gang shall weep
#21
(07-10-2011, 04:08 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: I think many people in this forum started out at a reform of the reform type liturgy at brompton, christendom, san fran, saint agnes in mn, st john cantius and sebastienskirche. Salzburg, st. Dennis in Athens Greece, there are a lot of decent venues with fairly good catechesis.

I hear what you're saying (or read what you're saying to be more precise) and I'm not trying to be argumentative but...

I don't think there's any such thing as a "reform of the reform" there's just celebrating the NO according to the rubrics with a bit of dignity thrown in.  That does not a liturgical movement make.  Neither this pope nor any member of the curia with competence in the matter has made a single change to the "reformed" liturgy.  There is no liturgical reform underway.
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#22
(07-10-2011, 05:11 PM)BrendanD Wrote:
(07-10-2011, 04:08 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: I think many people in this forum started out at a reform of the reform type liturgy at brompton, christendom, san fran, saint agnes in mn, st john cantius and sebastienskirche. Salzburg, st. Dennis in Athens Greece, there are a lot of decent venues with fairly good catechesis.

I hear what you're saying (or read what you're saying to be more precise) and I'm not trying to be argumentative but...

I don't think there's any such thing as a "reform of the reform" there's just celebrating the NO according to the rubrics with a bit of dignity thrown in.  That does not a liturgical movement make.  Neither this pope nor any member of the curia with competence in the matter has made a single change to the "reformed" liturgy.  There is no liturgical reform underway.

More specifically, it's a group of like-minded individuals writing about Liturgy, Philosophy and Theology, figures like Robert Spaemann, Father Fessio SJ, the Holy Father himself, the late Msgr Richard J. Schuler, some of the faculty at Christendom College, etc...

There's an affinity with these individuals and Traditionalists that was always obvious to me and it was real before the "excommunications" in 88, when SSPX priests would come to St. Agnes Parish in St. Paul to join Msgr Schuler for Vespers.

We need more wagons circling and less shooting at each other.  I've seen some stuff by a few of fthe Reform of the Reform types that's magnificent, especially in Germany and Austria where these people seem a lot more influential on the Church at large than their American Counterparts, but I think Father Fessio has done an awful lot of good, for all the criticism I could level at Ignatius books.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it from AQ and a close friend who was one of Father Fessio's students, Father says the TLM for his private Mass daily.  Don't know what that's about.  Maybe he's just tired of fighting, who knows, but I'm pretty overjoyed about the way things have been going the last thirty years.

There was a time when Tanqueray wasn't welcome in the Seminary.  Those times are changing.
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#23
(07-10-2011, 05:07 PM)BrendanD Wrote:
(07-10-2011, 02:59 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Many people here don't even have the option of attending the TLM and attend the NO.  Many people attend the NO as a last resort.  We're not all opposed to the NO under any circumstances. An improvement in the NO...is an improvement!

But, as someone who didn't properly celebrate International Latin Mass Day on Thursday your views are void :-p

Why don't they have an option?  People drove for HOURS to attend the TLM (my parents among them)  Now we have SP,  why aren't people lining up priests to say Mass?  Building communities?

People who attend "pretty" NO masses are not traditionalists.  They have an interest in tradition; might like a little Latin; awwww the heck with it...

Your generalizations not withstanding I believe you are wrong. Also I believe you are wrong about the intentions of the Holy Father. Pope Benedict knows perefectly well that it would be impossible and ridiculous to roll back the liturgy or to even create a new Missal less than 50 years after Paul VI Missal. If anything it would create a new precedent at which any Pope might feel free to do with the Missal what it wanted and the changes would never stop. That is why all the changes that he is trying to influence are mainly off the books. In the end however he has set up a system in which Catholics will simply vote with their feet and in the end this spells the end of the NO.

The gravitational pull theory is not just for the form of the Mass but also for the Catholic faithful. In the end those that want true religion meaning true Christianity will gravitate them selves towards a true form of worship that only the Tridentine offers. In reality Pope Benedict's SP is a master stroke, for as the biological solution works its way trough the Church the new presbyters are like the Jesuits of old, hiding in their priest holes praying the Mass of ages while the old trendies try to flush them out, but there is simply too many to contain.

In the end the Faith lives because the Faith is true.
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#24
(07-10-2011, 01:05 PM)BrendanD Wrote: Seriously, why do "traditionalists" care about a new NO  translation?

I'm not being snarky, it's a sincere question.

You're right in saying that none of these developments affect any of us personally. There are very few folks here who are forced to contend with an NO-only scenario for Sunday Mass ... and among those, there a very few who would attend the NO even if it were the only available option. However, in my case, I do care about the happenings of NO-Land because souls are truly at stake. Unlike most traditional Catholics, Catholics lodged in the drudgery of the NO-Missae typically have their Sunday Masses as the sole portion of the week devoted to their faith. The remainder of the week typically sees their Catholic identity neatly stuffed back into a drawer awaiting the next Sunday. With that in mind, I welcome and applaud any attempt to introduce a sense of profundity and sacrality into that small window of exposure. People forget that we did not get the NO-Missae over some ill-fated weekend. Catholics did not go to a glorious High Mass on Sunday and wake up on Monday with polyester ponchos and Haugen's "Mass of Creation" . It was a gradual process that had its first true success in the revision of the Easter Vigil in 1951 ... but that's another topic for another time.

This translation, while imperfect and impoverished when compared to the TLM, is a step in the right direction. It may be a feeble and atrophied step, but it is the first chink in the crust of stagnancy that is quite literally extinguishing the flame of the true faith in the hearts of countless Catholics. However, I am a supporter of a "reform-of-the-reform" if the following qualifier is attached to it :  The end, aim, goal, etc. of a "reform-of-the-reform" is the reinstating of the TLM as the universal liturgical rite of the Latin Rite. If the aim is not this, then I am at a loss as to what could possibly be the final aspiration of its supporters. A single juridical rite of the Catholic Church having two liturgical rites, each being in total irreconcilability to the other, is a monstrous novelty that cannot be allowed to continue. There is nothing more efficacious, more sublime, more unspeakably terrible (in an awe-inspiring sense) then the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. To have something so fundamentally essential to the very soul of the Church in such a state of utter disarray is doing more to the detriment of souls than any other issue afflicting the Church. The very fact that so many young and zealous Catholics are finally beginning to shed the scales from their eyes and come to a realization of this alarming reality is a cause for joy indeed. Their theories of how to go about repairing may be flawed or incomplete, but the recognition of the problem is a monumental jump in and of itself.

Anywho, I kind of digressed and wandered a bit, but needless to say we're living in unprecedented times.
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#25
(07-11-2011, 02:14 AM)Joshua Wrote: There are very few folks here who are forced to contend with an NO-only scenario for Sunday Mass

There is actually quite a number of people here who primarily attend the NO. They just don't brag about it. There is even more that attend it occasionally. 

I think a poll done a while ago said about 20% of FE posters primarily attend the NO on Sunday. 
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#26
(07-11-2011, 02:24 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(07-11-2011, 02:14 AM)Joshua Wrote: There are very few folks here who are forced to contend with an NO-only scenario for Sunday Mass

There is actually quite a number of people here who primarily attend the NO. They just don't brag about it. There is even more that attend it occasionally. 

I think a poll done a while ago said about 20% of FE posters primarily attend the NO on Sunday. 

2 out of 10, eh? My mistake. Poor folks.
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#27
(07-10-2011, 05:52 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote:
(07-10-2011, 05:11 PM)BrendanD Wrote:
(07-10-2011, 04:08 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: I think many people in this forum started out at a reform of the reform type liturgy at brompton, christendom, san fran, saint agnes in mn, st john cantius and sebastienskirche. Salzburg, st. Dennis in Athens Greece, there are a lot of decent venues with fairly good catechesis.

I hear what you're saying (or read what you're saying to be more precise) and I'm not trying to be argumentative but...

I don't think there's any such thing as a "reform of the reform" there's just celebrating the NO according to the rubrics with a bit of dignity thrown in.  That does not a liturgical movement make.  Neither this pope nor any member of the curia with competence in the matter has made a single change to the "reformed" liturgy.  There is no liturgical reform underway.

More specifically, it's a group of like-minded individuals writing about Liturgy, Philosophy and Theology, figures like Robert Spaemann, Father Fessio SJ, the Holy Father himself, the late Msgr Richard J. Schuler, some of the faculty at Christendom College, etc...

There's an affinity with these individuals and Traditionalists that was always obvious to me and it was real before the "excommunications" in 88, when SSPX priests would come to St. Agnes Parish in St. Paul to join Msgr Schuler for Vespers.

We need more wagons circling and less shooting at each other.  I've seen some stuff by a few of fthe Reform of the Reform types that's magnificent, especially in Germany and Austria where these people seem a lot more influential on the Church at large than their American Counterparts, but I think Father Fessio has done an awful lot of good, for all the criticism I could level at Ignatius books.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it from AQ and a close friend who was one of Father Fessio's students, Father says the TLM for his private Mass daily.  Don't know what that's about.  Maybe he's just tired of fighting, who knows, but I'm pretty overjoyed about the way things have been going the last thirty years.

There was a time when Tanqueray wasn't welcome in the Seminary.  Those times are changing.

There's certainly some merit in your position but in my opinion (and I stress "opinion") these people aren't allies.  Those of like mind were the ones calling us schismatics or accusing us of having a "schismatic mentality" until 2007.  (Some still do)  They accepted the NO as a done deal and worked to "pretty it up" all the while claiming that they were in perfect harmony with the mind of the Holy Father.  (There was always a delusional belief in that crowd that John Paul was a secret proponent of enriching the NO with beauty and transcendence - his very public liturgical abominations notwithstanding)

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#28
(07-10-2011, 06:38 PM)Unum Sint Wrote:
(07-10-2011, 05:07 PM)BrendanD Wrote:
(07-10-2011, 02:59 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Many people here don't even have the option of attending the TLM and attend the NO.  Many people attend the NO as a last resort.  We're not all opposed to the NO under any circumstances. An improvement in the NO...is an improvement!

But, as someone who didn't properly celebrate International Latin Mass Day on Thursday your views are void :-p

Why don't they have an option?  People drove for HOURS to attend the TLM (my parents among them)  Now we have SP,  why aren't people lining up priests to say Mass?  Building communities?

People who attend "pretty" NO masses are not traditionalists.  They have an interest in tradition; might like a little Latin; awwww the heck with it...

Your generalizations not withstanding I believe you are wrong. Also I believe you are wrong about the intentions of the Holy Father. Pope Benedict knows perefectly well that it would be impossible and ridiculous to roll back the liturgy or to even create a new Missal less than 50 years after Paul VI Missal. If anything it would create a new precedent at which any Pope might feel free to do with the Missal what it wanted and the changes would never stop. That is why all the changes that he is trying to influence are mainly off the books. In the end however he has set up a system in which Catholics will simply vote with their feet and in the end this spells the end of the NO.

The gravitational pull theory is not just for the form of the Mass but also for the Catholic faithful. In the end those that want true religion meaning true Christianity will gravitate them selves towards a true form of worship that only the Tridentine offers. In reality Pope Benedict's SP is a master stroke, for as the biological solution works its way trough the Church the new presbyters are like the Jesuits of old, hiding in their priest holes praying the Mass of ages while the old trendies try to flush them out, but there is simply too many to contain.

In the end the Faith lives because the Faith is true.

How can I be wrong about the intentions of the Holy Father when I never speculated on them?  Did you even read what I wrote before you launched your Zuhlsdorfian "gravitational pull" bs?

There's no "gravitational pull" for traditionalists. We aren't interested in making the Novus Ordo better - we want it relegated to the dust bin.  Full restoration was and is our goal.  You gravitational pull people should pack up your Adoremus hymnals and go haunt the EWTN fora
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#29
(07-11-2011, 02:24 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(07-11-2011, 02:14 AM)Joshua Wrote: There are very few folks here who are forced to contend with an NO-only scenario for Sunday Mass

There is actually quite a number of people here who primarily attend the NO. They just don't brag about it. There is even more that attend it occasionally. 

I think a poll done a while ago said about 20% of FE posters primarily attend the NO on Sunday. 

That's great, and we should talk to them, offer them coffee and biscuits, and point out the error of their ways.  They're not traditionalists.

I can be pretty open minded about most things.  People proof texting obscure saints to justify their Jansenist tendencies or hang-ups about human sexuality set my teeth on edge but on this one it's all out "no quarter"  Total "Rad Trad" when it comes to the Novus Ordo.

For traditionalists it's always been about the Mass.  I know people who drove hours on Sunday to hear a Latin Mass.  In many cases their own families mocked and marginalized them.  They truly suffered for the Mass and for the faith.  It wasn't a hobby for them - the Mass was as vital to their souls as oxygen was to their bodies.  I am convinced that many of these men and women are saints.

I have no patience for the latecomers who can't be bothered to get off their asses to do any real work.  They go to the NO, spike their conversations with Latin, and incorporate a few traditional devotions into their evening prayers.  They may be on the right path but they aren't Traditional Catholics. 

We have SP now.  It's easier for you then it was for the people in the 70s and 80s.  Find a few like minded people and get a priest to say the TLM for you.  DRIVE more than 10 minutes to get to Mass.  Sacrifice by re-arranging your Sunday schedule to hear a TLM at an inconvenient time in a distant location.

But for heaven's sake, dump the Novus Ordo

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#30
(07-11-2011, 06:19 AM)BrendanD Wrote:
(07-11-2011, 02:24 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(07-11-2011, 02:14 AM)Joshua Wrote: There are very few folks here who are forced to contend with an NO-only scenario for Sunday Mass

There is actually quite a number of people here who primarily attend the NO. They just don't brag about it. There is even more that attend it occasionally. 

I think a poll done a while ago said about 20% of FE posters primarily attend the NO on Sunday. 

That's great, and we should talk to them, offer them coffee and biscuits, and point out the error of their ways.  They're not traditionalists.

I can be pretty open minded about most things.  People proof texting obscure saints to justify their Jansenist tendencies or hang-ups about human sexuality set my teeth on edge but on this one it's all out "no quarter"  Total "Rad Trad" when it comes to the Novus Ordo.

For traditionalists it's always been about the Mass.  I know people who drove hours on Sunday to hear a Latin Mass.  In many cases their own families mocked and marginalized them.  They truly suffered for the Mass and for the faith.  It wasn't a hobby for them - the Mass was as vital to their souls as oxygen was to their bodies.  I am convinced that many of these men and women are saints.

I have no patience for the latecomers who can't be bothered to get off their asses to do any real work.  They go to the NO, spike their conversations with Latin, and incorporate a few traditional devotions into their evening prayers.  They may be on the right path but they aren't Traditional Catholics. 

We have SP now.  It's easier for you then it was for the people in the 70s and 80s.  Find a few like minded people and get a priest to say the TLM for you.  DRIVE more than 10 minutes to get to Mass.  Sacrifice by re-arranging your Sunday schedule to hear a TLM at an inconvenient time in a distant location.

But for heaven's sake, dump the Novus Ordo

I have no patience for people who won't celebrate international day of the Latin Mass because it falls on a Thursday! 
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