Were the Bourbon Kings really Catholic?
#1
I know they banned the Jesuits in France and believed the Jesuits were working against the interests of the French Monarchy, but I was unclear as to why, other than the fact that English Catholics, taught by Jesuits, by and large supported the British king against the American colonists, whom the Bourbon's sided with. But I had forgotten that during the 1618-1648 war in Europe the pro-Catholic Guise family in France and the pro-Huguenot Bourbon family fought each other and France eventually received a Bourbon compromise candidate for the French throne. France followed a very strange course from here on, being the main reason why Generals Tilly and Waldenstein didn't crush the Protestant forces in Germany, and I believe saving the Protestants in Europe as a whole. And sitting on the French throne all the while was a "moderate" from a family known to be sympathetic to Huguenots.

France seemed to be plagued by a wealthy group of elite nobles who secretly practiced Calvinism and I now know that many of the French Jews also embraced this extremist "Christian" cult. From what I understand, in order to regain their priviledges and rights from an increasingly powerful, absolutist and centralized French crown, these nobles openly sided with the revolutionary forces in 1789, leading to the murder of the French royal family. This opposition to the crown from elite quarters reminds me also of the American Revolution in 1776, another country strongly sympathetic to Calvinism and also Judaism.

Mainstream historians might suggest that it was France's rivalry with the Austrian Habsburgs which caused it to side with the Protestants in the 16th and 17th centuries, but the fact that the Bourbon's had Calvinist leanings is disquieting, even though I understand Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes which promised toleration for the Calvinists. Still, France's Catholicism seems to have grown strange from the Bourbon Kings to today, including the Jansenists and I've also noticed the startling population decline of France since the 18th century too, which is another topic that needs to be explored (all the talk being about a "balance of power" from England while France, being the mightiest land power, who "just happened" to decline in population...to fill the "balance of power?")

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#2
The Jesuits were suppressed in France in 1767, which was quite a while before the American Revolutionary War.

I'm also not sure about the suggestion that English Catholics were pro-George III during the Revolution.
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#3
(07-11-2011, 12:49 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: The Jesuits were suppressed in France in 1767, which was quite a while before the American Revolutionary War.

I'm also not sure about the suggestion that English Catholics were pro-George III during the Revolution.
I know that the few American (colonial) Catholics were loyalists. (Pro-George)
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#4
The French Catholic Church was pretty messed up in the eighteenth century.  In 1790 half of the clergy and 4 bishops took an oath supporting the civil constitution of the clergy.  Among other things it called for the election of priests and bishops.  Such clerical elections would not be limited to Catholics.  The oath also called on the clergy not to seek counsel from the Pope.  

People have no idea how bad the church can get until they study the French Revolution...
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#5
(07-11-2011, 12:52 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote:
(07-11-2011, 12:49 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: The Jesuits were suppressed in France in 1767, which was quite a while before the American Revolutionary War.

I'm also not sure about the suggestion that English Catholics were pro-George III during the Revolution.
I know that the few American (colonial) Catholics were loyalists. (Pro-George)

The Carrols of Maryland were patriots. Two of them signed the Declaration of Independence. 

Religious identification really doesn't seem to have made a big impact on whether someone became a patriot, loyalist, or "other."
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#6
(07-11-2011, 12:52 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote: I know that the few American (colonial) Catholics were loyalists. (Pro-George)

Are there any statistics that exist for loyalist/patriot Catholics in the Thirteen Colonies during the Revolution? Charles Carroll was the richest man in the colonies. He financed much of the war, signed the Declaration of Independence, and was a Catholic to boot. His cousin John was also a patriot and went on to become the first bishop in the U.S. In fact, before the suppression of the Jesuits, he was one of them!

Then there was Stephen Moylan, another Catholic who was Quartermaster General of the Continental Army. And of course, for foreigners besides the obvious French and Spanish, several Poles such as Casimir Pulaski were leaders of the Continental Army. In addition you can find a prayerbook written for Catholic patriot soldiers.
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#7
(07-11-2011, 12:58 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(07-11-2011, 12:52 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote:
(07-11-2011, 12:49 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: The Jesuits were suppressed in France in 1767, which was quite a while before the American Revolutionary War.

I'm also not sure about the suggestion that English Catholics were pro-George III during the Revolution.
I know that the few American (colonial) Catholics were loyalists. (Pro-George)

The Carrols of Maryland were patriots. Two of them signed the Declaration of Independence. 

Religious identification really doesn't seem to have made a big impact on whether someone became a patriot, loyalist, or "other."

The Carrols of Maryland were wealthy. Not of the status quo of the majority of colonials.
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#8
Check this out. It touches upon the Catholics in the colonial / American revolution days
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#9
(07-11-2011, 01:00 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote:
(07-11-2011, 12:58 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(07-11-2011, 12:52 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote:
(07-11-2011, 12:49 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: The Jesuits were suppressed in France in 1767, which was quite a while before the American Revolutionary War.

I'm also not sure about the suggestion that English Catholics were pro-George III during the Revolution.
I know that the few American (colonial) Catholics were loyalists. (Pro-George)

The Carrols of Maryland were patriots. Two of them signed the Declaration of Independence. 

Religious identification really doesn't seem to have made a big impact on whether someone became a patriot, loyalist, or "other."

The Carrols of Maryland were wealthy. Not of the status quo of the majority of colonials.

But, they had influence in Catholic circles.  

Many, many historians have tried to find ways that religious identification affected loyalty during the Revolution and none that have looked at quantitative data have found any connection.  

Typically the big argument is that Anglicans were most likely to oppose the Revolution. While this is true of the Anglican Clergy, it's not true of the laity.  

I don't see any reason why Catholicism would make one more inclined to support George III or George Washington.  
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#10
(07-11-2011, 01:02 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote: Check this out. It touches upon the Catholics in the colonial / American revolution days

He is right there is connection between people on the periphery being attracted to Loyalism (as well as those with holding colonial office), although this can be exaggerated. 

However, most Catholics were in an odd position (not that there were a lot of them).  Most Catholics were found in Maryland where they made up some of the most elite families, yet were deprived legal rights. In the 18th century you won't find many poor Catholics.  Being an English recusant Catholic tended to be expensive as it opened you to so many fines unless you managed to find a Catholic aristocrat to defend you.  There were no Catholic aristocrats in America, so you had to have money.  Most were not as wealthy as the Carrolls, but by 18th century standards most American Catholic families were quite well off.

Also, he's wrong that the Revolution was started by people in power already.  Washington desperately wanted a commission in the British army, but could never get it.  The Revolution was largely led by people who were just breath away from being part of the colonial leadership, yet not able to enter that leadership.
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