Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
#41
From the same chapter of St. John's Gospel, we have this verse: "I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing."

From the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent, Chapter 7:

CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instru-[Page 35]mental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which [Page 36] Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.
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#42
(07-20-2011, 03:42 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: There are other relevant passages like the one in Romans that I quoted earlier.

Or Ephesians 1:
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ: [4] As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. [5] Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will
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#43
(07-20-2011, 03:53 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 03:42 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: There are other relevant passages like the one in Romans that I quoted earlier.

Or Ephesians 1:
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ: [4] As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. [5] Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will

Amen.
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#44
(07-20-2011, 03:44 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 02:09 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I'd really like to get an answer to my question if those who do not receive efficacious grace can get to Heaven.

Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange would say no.

Well thats delightfully ambiguous.  If one can't get to Heaven without efficacious grace, then what is the point of sufficient grace?  How is it sufficient if it can't lead us to Heaven?
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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#45
And then how is free will anything other than an illusion if we are going to end up in Heaven or Hell according to whether or not God decides to give us efficacious grace?  It would seem that free will is a sham, because those who do not receive efficacious grace, not matter how much they love and desire to be with God, can't.  They will burn.

If free will is the instrument by which we accept or reject God, then what good is sufficient grace?  If it can't help us to Heaven, why would we want to have anything to do with it?  On the other hand, if we accept it (because its from God) and live our life accordingly, but were never provided efficacious grace, we still don't get to heaven.

That doesn't make any sense to me.  Maybe I'm not understanding it. 
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#46
(07-20-2011, 04:09 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 03:44 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 02:09 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I'd really like to get an answer to my question if those who do not receive efficacious grace can get to Heaven.

Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange would say no.

Well thats delightfully ambiguous.  If one can't get to Heaven without efficacious grace, then what is the point of sufficient grace?  How is it sufficient if it can't lead us to Heaven?

Well, it is certainly a difficult question.  I think it hinges on one's notion of potentiality.

Vetus Ordo is a Pope in potentia, i.e. he is a baptized Catholic male, and the College of Cardinals, upon the death of Benedict XVI, could elect Vetus Ordo to be the next Bishop of Rome.  

So every person is given sufficient grace that they may be potentially justified, but it would take a further grace for them to be actually justified, or that is how I understand it as of now.  Admittedly, it is tough to work through though.  This is where most contemporary inquirers find the A/T position unpalatable.

More from the Sixth Session of Trent which I think enlightens the issue:

CHAPTER VIII.
In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

CHAPTER XIII.
On the gift of Perseverance.

So also as regards the gift of perseverance, of which it is written, He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved:-which gift cannot be derived from any other but Him, who is able to establish him who standeth that he stand perseveringly, and to restore him who falleth:-let no one herein promise himself any thing as certain with an absolute certainty; though all ought to place and repose a most firm hope in God's help. For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace, as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish. Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations, in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God's grace, obedient to the Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

Concerning the doctrine of Calvin: CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.
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#47
K I'm gonna read that later.  I'm just getting this really nasty feeling from this thread like no matter what we do in life, our afterlife is going to be decided by drawing straws for the right kind of grace. 

Gotta get back to homework.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#48
(07-20-2011, 04:15 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: And then how is free will anything other than an illusion if we are going to end up in Heaven or Hell according to whether or not God decides to give us efficacious grace?  It would seem that free will is a sham, because those who do not receive efficacious grace, not matter how much they love and desire to be with God, can't.  They will burn.

If free will is the instrument by which we accept or reject God, then what good is sufficient grace?  If it can't help us to Heaven, why would we want to have anything to do with it?  On the other hand, if we accept it (because its from God) and live our life accordingly, but were never provided efficacious grace, we still don't get to heaven.

That doesn't make any sense to me.  Maybe I'm not understanding it. 

I think Garrigou-Lagrange does answer this well:

Christian Perfection and Contemplation According to St. Thomas Aquinas
and St. John of the Cross
by Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
"Garrigou-Lagrange" Wrote:St. Thomas, following St. Augustine and opposing Pelagian or semi-Pelagian naturalism, grasped the depth and the height of our Lord's words: "Without Me you can do nothing," [1] and of St. Paul's words: "For it is God Who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to His good will." [2] "For who distinguisheth thee? Or what hast thou that thou hast not received?" [3] In the work of salvation we cannot distinguish any part that is exclusively ours; all comes from God, even our free co-operation, which efficacious grace gently and mightily stirs up in us and confirms.

This grace, which is always followed by its effect, is refused to us, as we said, only if we resist the Divine, auxilium praeveniens, sufficient grace, in which the efficacious help is already offered us, as fruit is in the flower. If we destroy the flower, we shall never see the fruit, which the influence of the sun and of the nourishment of the earth would have produced. Now man is sufficient to himself to fall; drawn from nothingness, he is by nature defectible. He is sufficiently assisted by God so that he falls only through his own fault, which thus deprives him of a new help. This is the great mystery of grace. We have elsewhere explained what St. Thomas and his best disciples teach about this mystery. [4]

With him and St. Augustine we must submit our intelligence before this Divine obscurity, and as Bossuet says, "confess these two graces (sufficient and efficacious), one of which leaves the will without excuse before God, and the other does not permit the will to glory in itself." [5] Is this not in conformity with what our conscience tells us? According to this doctrine, all that is good in us, naturally or supernaturally, has its origin in the Author of all good. Sin alone cannot come from Him, and the Lord allows it to happen only because He is sufficiently powerful and good to draw from it a greater good, the manifestation of His mercy or justice.




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#49
(07-20-2011, 04:33 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 04:15 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: And then how is free will anything other than an illusion if we are going to end up in Heaven or Hell according to whether or not God decides to give us efficacious grace?  It would seem that free will is a sham, because those who do not receive efficacious grace, not matter how much they love and desire to be with God, can't.  They will burn.

If free will is the instrument by which we accept or reject God, then what good is sufficient grace?  If it can't help us to Heaven, why would we want to have anything to do with it?  On the other hand, if we accept it (because its from God) and live our life accordingly, but were never provided efficacious grace, we still don't get to heaven.

That doesn't make any sense to me.  Maybe I'm not understanding it. 

I think Garrigou-Lagrange does answer this well:

Christian Perfection and Contemplation According to St. Thomas Aquinas
and St. John of the Cross
by Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
"Garrigou-Lagrange" Wrote:St. Thomas, following St. Augustine and opposing Pelagian or semi-Pelagian naturalism, grasped the depth and the height of our Lord's words: "Without Me you can do nothing," [1] and of St. Paul's words: "For it is God Who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to His good will." [2] "For who distinguisheth thee? Or what hast thou that thou hast not received?" [3] In the work of salvation we cannot distinguish any part that is exclusively ours; all comes from God, even our free co-operation, which efficacious grace gently and mightily stirs up in us and confirms.

This grace, which is always followed by its effect, is refused to us, as we said, only if we resist the Divine, auxilium praeveniens, sufficient grace, in which the efficacious help is already offered us, as fruit is in the flower. If we destroy the flower, we shall never see the fruit, which the influence of the sun and of the nourishment of the earth would have produced. Now man is sufficient to himself to fall; drawn from nothingness, he is by nature defectible. He is sufficiently assisted by God so that he falls only through his own fault, which thus deprives him of a new help. This is the great mystery of grace. We have elsewhere explained what St. Thomas and his best disciples teach about this mystery. [4]

With him and St. Augustine we must submit our intelligence before this Divine obscurity, and as Bossuet says, "confess these two graces (sufficient and efficacious), one of which leaves the will without excuse before God, and the other does not permit the will to glory in itself." [5] Is this not in conformity with what our conscience tells us? According to this doctrine, all that is good in us, naturally or supernaturally, has its origin in the Author of all good. Sin alone cannot come from Him, and the Lord allows it to happen only because He is sufficiently powerful and good to draw from it a greater good, the manifestation of His mercy or justice.

Thanks for that Doce, very good.
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#50
(07-20-2011, 04:09 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 03:44 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 02:09 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: I'd really like to get an answer to my question if those who do not receive efficacious grace can get to Heaven.

Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange would say no.

Well thats delightfully ambiguous.  If one can't get to Heaven without efficacious grace, then what is the point of sufficient grace?  How is it sufficient if it can't lead us to Heaven?

It's sufficient in that Christ's death on Calvary is sufficient for the salvation of all.  However, God does not save all, and thus sufficient grace only becomes efficient grace for the elect.

In response to the OP, the end of Molinism will be a great day for the Church.
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