Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(07-20-2011, 10:51 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 08:39 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote: Not only is it not necessarily Thomist/Augustinian, but I would say it is flatly erroneous.  In what sense would they "never turn to Him."  We hold that God may efficaciously will the salvation of anyone: St. Paul, St. Ignatius, St. Augustine himself.  The first quote makes it sounds as though God's choice is determined by the creature, which is exactly what Augustinianism/Thomism seeks to avoid. 

Fr. Lagrange summarizes the A-T doctrine as God who determines and is not determined.

What if God determines by not determining?  Could Almighty God possibly be secure enough in himself that he doesn't need to elect us to either damnation or salvation to prevent offending his sovereignty?  Could he not have decided, "hey, I'm going to create these people, and I want them to freely choose me, so I'm going to let them choose, even if ultimately I know they won't choose me"?  I don't see how that confounds God's will, if it is his will for us to choose him freely.  After all, we can't really confound God's will by rejecting him.  Did we have any power to raise ourselves from the dust?  St. Augustine took it in the wrong direction, seeing God's will can't be confounded therefore he must predestine to heaven and hell.  He should have gone in the other direction, saying God's will can't be confounded, yet people choose to reject him, therefore his passive will must be that all mankind would be saved, but his active will is to let it be each person's choice so that the love is true.  That's Molinism, from what I understand of it.  That's orthodox Christianity.  The end :)

The topic of predestination is not just mere intellectual speculation. It's based on the contents of revelation, namely Scripture which is the infallible word of God. St. Augustine wasn't making things up as he went along. Read St. Paul's letter to the Romans, 9:11-23:

"For when the children were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil (that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand,) not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said to her: The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy; and I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith to Pharao: To this purpose have I raised thee, that I may shew my power in thee, and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will; and whom he will, he hardeneth. Thou wilt say therefore to me: Why doth he then find fault? for who resisteth his will? O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus? Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, that he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory?"

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by Vetus Ordo - 07-20-2011, 11:28 AM

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