Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(07-20-2011, 11:32 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 11:01 AM)Silouan Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 10:51 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 08:39 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote: Not only is it not necessarily Thomist/Augustinian, but I would say it is flatly erroneous.  In what sense would they "never turn to Him."  We hold that God may efficaciously will the salvation of anyone: St. Paul, St. Ignatius, St. Augustine himself.  The first quote makes it sounds as though God's choice is determined by the creature, which is exactly what Augustinianism/Thomism seeks to avoid. 

Fr. Lagrange summarizes the A-T doctrine as God who determines and is not determined.

What if God determines by not determining?  Could Almighty God possibly be secure enough in himself that he doesn't need to elect us to either damnation or salvation to prevent offending his sovereignty?  Could he not have decided, "hey, I'm going to create these people, and I want them to freely choose me, so I'm going to let them choose, even if ultimately I know they won't choose me"?  I don't see how that confounds God's will, if it is his will for us to choose him freely.  After all, we can't really confound God's will by rejecting him.  Did we have any power to raise ourselves from the dust?  St. Augustine took it in the wrong direction, seeing God's will can't be confounded therefore he must predestine to heaven and hell.  He should have gone in the other direction, saying God's will can't be confounded, yet people choose to reject him, therefore his passive will must be that all mankind would be saved, but his active will is to let it be each person's choice so that the love is true.  That's Molinism, from what I understand of it.  That's orthodox Christianity.  The end :)

Then how does St Augustine differ from Calvin? Why is one heresy and the other not?

Calvin held that God's positively wills the evil committed by the reprobate.  SS. Augustine and Thomas teach that evil comes from the will of man (or angels) and everyone is given sufficient grace for salvation, but only the elect receive efficacious grace.  In other words, in His omnipotence, God may efficaciously will the salvation of anyone, no matter how hardened in sin and disbelief, and that person will infallibly be saved.  The flipside is that, for whatever reasons unknown to us, God allows the reprobate to remain in their sin.

Re sufficient and effacacious grace... is sufficient grace enough to be saved?  I mean, can a person who didn't receive efficacious grace receive Heaven?
More Catholic Discussion:

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by Mithrandylan - 07-20-2011, 12:01 PM

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