Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(07-20-2011, 05:42 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote:
(07-20-2011, 05:21 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: This is helping.  Let me make my question a little more specific.

I understand that our salvation is allowed/willed by God.  We can't simply "be good" and have that be enough to get to Heaven.  Supposing two Catholics lived lives of equal temporal merit- they followed church teaching, discipline, evangelized, lived according to the precepts of the Church, Ten Commandments, etc.  They were, in every earthly respect, saints.  They were the kind of men who, if you bet on such things, would wager they would be in Heaven.  ETA They both die in in the state of grace.

But only one of them received efficacious grace while the other received only sufficient grace.  Will only the one who received efficacious grace reach Heaven? 

Christs sacrifice was enough to save all, but not all will be saved.  Is this because not all accept God's grace, or because not all receive God's <i>efficacious</i> grace?

For example, what are the points of the sacraments if we can only be saved by God's efficacious grace?  Or the point of anything, for that matter?

It is not that grace is something incidentally required for salvation, but rather that without grace no one is able to do what is required to be saved.  As the Canon quoted above says, no one can believe, hope, or love as he ought to without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

In other words, it is not as though I might love God with all my heart, but still be damned because I did not receive efficacious grace.  Without grace, I will never love God as I ought.  Period.

You say grace, but in this discussion there has been a concise mention of both sufficient and efficacious grace.  And efficacious grace has, as far as I can tell, been presented as something (at least in this thread) an absolute requirement for a soul to reach Heaven.  It has also said that this efficacious grace is not provided to all.  How then, can God desire all men to be saved if He does not give them what is necessary to be saved?  God cannot contradict Himself, yet if He is desiring all to be saved, and <i>no one</i> can be saved with His grace, (which, in the case of efficacious grace- which is presented as being the difference between Damnation and salvation- is <i>not</i> made available to all) then He is offering salvation only to some, where He is desiring that all would be saved.  His desire that all are to be saved would be vain if not all are <i>able</i> to be saved.  By able I mean that they are not given the adequate grace.  It has always been my understanding that we are saved by God's grace, which is offered to all, but not unless we accept it.  This argument seems to contend that we are saved by His grace, only if we accept it <i>and</i> only if He gives it to us.  Maybe I'm missing something.

  There is a difference between a person rejecting the necessary means of salvation and thus being damned, and a person who is never availed to these necessary means, and is subsequently damned.  God obviously lets us decide whether to accept or reject Him, but if the qualifying grace for salvation is not something everyone receives, then how can He desire for us to all be saved if our free will only amounts to a hill of beans?  It would seem to reason that since it is His will for us to have free will, that our free will plays some part in our salvation, if only as a tool to utilize gifts that only God can give, and this gift of grace <i>is</i> the qualifying agent by which we are saved.  But if only some recieve the grace needed, then free will amounts to a hill of beans because all the free will in the world isn't going to get you to Heaven, only God's grace will.  So people who would have used their free will to accept this efficacious grace are damned simply because they were never availed to it.

Again, maybe I misunderstand.  But so far this is what I'm getting from this thread.
More Catholic Discussion:

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by Mithrandylan - 07-21-2011, 12:00 AM

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