Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(07-21-2011, 04:58 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(07-21-2011, 04:55 PM)Walty Wrote:
(07-21-2011, 04:51 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(07-21-2011, 04:43 PM)Walty Wrote:
(07-21-2011, 04:26 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Is there like a dogmatic stance on which one is right or more right than the other?   ???

That's the great argument.  Both claim to be more in accord with traditional Catholic theology and the teachings of St. Thomas. 

But, in my opinion, only one justifiably makes that claim, and that is the Augustinian/Thomists.  In simplest terms, the argument is that the Molinists offend the classical picture of the Christian God and His total providence by attributing a vital part of the salvation process to men themselves, working quite separately from God and His grace, and they thus fall into a theology which is Pelagian in spirit.

Because it's problematic to say that men can do good and accept God's grace all on their own.

Well, the impression that I had from this thread was that Augustinian theories next to obliterate man's role in his own salvation.  Maybe that's not the way its intended, but thats the impression I've had so far. 

Why can't it just be as simple as we can't get to Heaven without God's grace (which He provides to all) and we can't accept God's grace unless we chose to?  It seems like with the Augustinian stuff you've got oodles of people who are going to Hell simply because they weren't provided grace, not that they didn't accept it.  Or that they weren't provided the right grace.  I dunno.

My equilibrium is shattered.   :(

Yeah, but how is it problematic to say that men can choose all on their own?  I mean, thats what this is about.  Choosing to accept God's grace.  I mean, thats one of the biggest points of making us in His image and likeness, right?  To have free will?

I mean, we're totally free to chose to deny God on our own.  He allows that.  So why is it problematic to chose God on our own?  That's pretty much the point of life, isn't it?  Loving God freely?

Yes, but remember that true freedom is not to exist in a state where a multiplicity of options are open to you, but, to exist in a state in which you can choose the good.  St. Thomas says that the movement of a man's will to the good comes primarily from God, and only secondarily by the man.  To put it in another way, that movement of the will is done (and can only be done) by God.  However, man still assents to it and gives himself over to that movement in the same way that a man fallen into a river can fight or go with the flow, so to speak.

If you take away the movement of the will towards good from God's providence and give it to man then you put God almost as a secondary figure in the act of salvation, or at least an equal player.  It's a partnership, which isn't possible theologically.  Yes, He offers us salvation, but then He has to passively wait to see if we will accept it or not, something which He has absolutely no control over and yet is the heart and soul of man's existence.

We remove God from the most intimate and powerful act in all of creation.

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by Walty - 07-21-2011, 05:07 PM

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