Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(07-22-2011, 11:01 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote:
(07-22-2011, 09:56 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-22-2011, 02:58 AM)Walty Wrote:
(07-21-2011, 06:55 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-21-2011, 05:07 PM)Walty Wrote: Yes, but remember that true freedom is not to exist in a state where a multiplicity of options are open to you, but, to exist in a state in which you can choose the good.  St. Thomas says that the movement of a man's will to the good comes primarily from God, and only secondarily by the man.  To put it in another way, that movement of the will is done (and can only be done) by God.  However, man still assents to it and gives himself over to that movement in the same way that a man fallen into a river can fight or go with the flow, so to speak.

If you take away the movement of the will towards good from God's providence and give it to man then you put God almost as a secondary figure in the act of salvation, or at least an equal player.  It's a partnership, which isn't possible theologically.  Yes, He offers us salvation, but then He has to passively wait to see if we will accept it or not, something which He has absolutely no control over and yet is the heart and soul of man's existence.

We remove God from the most intimate and powerful act in all of creation.

Ok, now you are just bordering on heresy. 

Go read your Augustine and Thomas.

Heresy doesn't become orthodox because Augustine and Aquinas accepted it.  The fact that they are fathers and doctors doesn't mean they couldn't be material heretics on individual issues.

Which heresy are you alleging against Ss. Augustine and Aquinas?  Provide Canons of Councils or Papal documents that support your position.  Otherwise, you are just spouting an opinion, with no basis in anything, which slanders perhaps the two greatest Doctors in Church history.

If they believed that salvation is solely on God's part and not a synergistic partnership, then they would have been in material heresy.  I wasn't suggesting that they were, I was responding to Walty's comment that sounded as if Augustine or Aquinas merely say something it is automatically Catholic dogma.  That's not the case, and it certainly isn't slandering them to recognize that even they are fallible.

Anyways, this is an internet forum, isn't thw whole point just spouting off your opinion?  I'm giving my opinion, I certainly don't give it with the expectation that suddenly everyone whose opinion differs is just going to change their mind because I said something different.  I know Walty is pretty invested in Thomism, I have no hope in changing his mind, I'm just saying what I think.  Everyone is free to take it or leave it.  Not everyone has the time to spend digging up every papal decree or council canon to support what they're saying.  There are enough contentious discussions going on here that we'd all starve to death first.

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by Melkite - 07-22-2011, 11:38 AM

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