Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(07-30-2011, 01:49 PM)Gregory I Wrote: OK, but let's be real: When you say a majority of saints, you don't mean post-Augustinian saints of the west, for that would be a majority, you mean PRE-Augustinian EASTERN saints. Ultimately, that is the standard you use. The East has never taken the Fathers of the west seriously, as the council of Florence demonstrated. The Easterners under Mark Eugenicus were flabbergasted when the Westerners actually showed the filioque occurring in the saints of the west.

Also, one of the East's Favorite western saints, St. Gregory the Dialogist (Pope St. Gregory I) was fiercely Augustinian. As was St. Anselm of Canterbury, St. Caesarius of Arles, St. Hilary, St. Fulgentius of Ruspe, St. Prosper of Aquitane, St. Jerome (Who agreed with Augustine).

What is so difficult to believe about that? St. Vincent and St. John Cassian were responsible (perhaps unwittingly) for a heresy, and the East Venerates them! In Fact, the objections YOU make to Augustine SOUND like the same objections that Cassian made to Augustine, but the Church proclaimed Augustine orthodox! It condemned what was taught by St. John Cassian and his followers as the heresy of Semi-Pelagianism.

But listen to what the Doctor of Grace Actually had to say about free will, and tell me where he differs from any of the Fathers:

Your right that when I say the majority of Saints, I am talking about pre-Augustinian saints, but I mean no disparity between East and West.  If you give me quotes from pre-Augustinian Latin fathers I will view them with the same weight as I view pre-Augustinian Greek fathers.  I just haven't seen anything that seems to show an intensely Augustinian view of pre-destination.  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I've never seen them.  If you've got them, show them and that'll definitely bring the red flags down, at least for me.  Of the saints you referenced, do you have quotes from them?

Also, what you quoted from St. Augustine sounds different from what others quoted of him.  What you quote sound agreeable to the Eastern Fathers I quoted, that our salvation, even though dependent on grace, is also dependent on our will.  From what others quoted, it gives the impression that St. Augustine taught that our wills play absolutely no part.  Or, at least, that's how Walty made it sound, and that if our will plays any part that would be impossible and contrary to Augustine.

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by Melkite - 07-30-2011, 02:05 PM

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