Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(07-30-2011, 06:00 PM)Gregory I Wrote: WHen people emphasize St. Augustines teaching on Predestination, it is true they often do this to the detriment of his teaching on free will.

St. Augustine taught "free will" but not in terms of absolute freedom. The will that is held in bondage to sin is NOT free to NOT sin. THerefore all of our cooperation with God's grace can only be AFTER he has made the INITIAL move toward us.

Semi-Pelagianism says that yes, we need God's grace to complete our salvation and we cannot be saved without it, but WE can INITIATE the move toward God by our own will apart from grace.

ALOT of the east APPEARS to say just that. But that is heresy. The will cannot incline itself to God unless God wills it.

In Terms of Pre-Augustinian Fathers,To name Just one, Look at St. Clement of Alexandria "Those were already ordained, whom God predestined. For he knew before the foundation of the world that they would be righteous."

He says in another place:

"It is not possible to attain it without the exercise of free choice. However the whole does not depend on our own purpose, as for example, what is destined to happen."
This is flatly against the semi-pelagians who say we initiate the move toward God by Willing him first.

Also, wat is deficient in the POst-Augustinian Fathers who agree with Augustine other than the fact....that they agree with him and teach what he taught? The bottom line is that Between Augustine and Cassian, it is AUGUSTINE who is vindicated, NOT Cassian or Vincent. It is AUGUSTINE's Theology of grace that is made normative for the Church of Rome and all the west.

All the quotes from the Eastern Fathers on Free will don't threaten Augustine one bit. I applaud them. The ERROR lies in believing we can initiate the relationship with God. THAT is the heresy.

Augustine NEVER taught that the will plays no part! He simply taught the will is not free ENOUGH and strong ENOUGH to ascend to GOd on its own. Pelagius taught otherwise, and the Semi-Pelagians taught a modified version of this.

I don't think the issue for us in the East is that our salvation has to be initiated by God.  That's not a problem at all.  What is a problem is suggesting that God chooses to withhold grace to someone whom he foreknows would choose to accept him if he were to give him the grace to do so.  Or that if he would give him the grace to do so, that such grace would be irresistable.  Either one, in reality, nullifies free will.  It makes it so that one's salvation is soley the good pleasure of God, which Walty believes, if I understand him correctly, is the only correct option.  It's that idea that I don't think there is any real patristic support for.  Is there anyone, East or West, that teaches that in the same manner as St. Augustine?

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by Melkite - 07-30-2011, 06:42 PM

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