Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
There is a reason all the major heresies began in the east.... :laughing:

But seriously, Melkite, I love the CHristian east. I neraly converted to Orthodoxy myeslf, and I understand its ethos. I understand the appeal of the Eastern Fathers vis a vis the Western, but this appeal is often an exaggeration. It is based on a straw-man understanding of Western Orthodox and Scholastic Theology.

My question still stands: Doesn't the ratification of the AUgustinian tenests in the west by the western Fathers hold just as true as the Ratification of the theology of Cassian/ The Gregories, Chrysostom in the East? Why not if not?

"I don't think the issue for us in the East is that our salvation has to be initiated by God.  That's not a problem at all. What is a problem is suggesting that God chooses to withhold grace to someone whom he foreknows would choose to accept him if he were to give him the grace to do so.  Or that if he would give him the grace to do so, that such grace would be irresistable.  Either one, in reality, nullifies free will.  It makes it so that one's salvation is soley the good pleasure of God, which Walty believes, if I understand him correctly, is the only correct option.  It's that idea that I don't think there is any real patristic support for.  Is there anyone, East or West, that teaches that in the same manner as St. Augustine?"

Okay, Augustine teaches NEITHER of these propositions!

1. God never withholds grace from those he foresees choosing him BECAUSE he cannot foresee them choosing him without his grace in the first place! If you view God's foreknowledge this way, then yes, he would contradict himself and the universe would explode. But remember, we cannot DESIRE him unless he calls us first.

Augustine teaches that none of us an please God naturally. He teaches we are all justly condemned. He also teaches that God wills to grant his grace to SOME so that they may turn from wickedness and live. IN this we see the great mercy of God. In others, he chooses to not give them grace, so that we may see the terrible light of his justice. For our condemnation, although terrible, is just. Now, if God saved everybody and was merciful to everyone, we would never know his justice. If he saved no one and treated everyone with strict justice, we would never know his mercy. But Scripture says (ROmans 9) That God wills to manifest his glory in both his Justice AND his mercy. Therefore he wills to save some, but not others.

2. You make the mistake of assuming two other things here: a. That the reprobate would desire God. b. That the Victorious delight of God's grace is not resistible by the human will.

Let's take a). The reprobate do not desire to please God, for they do not desire to come to him. "No man comes to me unless the father draws them." Therefore, those who the Father does NOT draw do not WANT Christ. They have no desire for him. In fact, they get exactly what they DO want: The results of living for themselves alone. There is no assault on the freedom of choice here, because the reprobate HAVE chosen; and they choose themselves. All through their life, and all the way to hell.

b.) When GOd grants his grace to a man, man experiences the grace of God as a victorious delight in the soul. This grace of God acts upon man's will so that the will infallibly inclines toward God. NEVERTHELESS, even if God's grace is INFALLIBLY efficacious, it is not irresistibly so. The human will still MUST retain the CAPACITY to resist the will of God. Augustine simply believes it never does, though it always remains possible. It is irresistible in FACT, but not in itself. Within the Augustinian theology, Grace can act either morally upon the will of man, or physically. Augustine was never clear how he envisioned this. I take the view that God acts upon the human will, and physically moves it, but in such a way that it is made FREE, so it can FREELY choose him.

The Church has condemned the notion that the human will does not have the capacity to resist the grace of God. But it does not condemn, and in fact the greater teaching is, that his Will to convert is infallible in its effect.
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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by Gregory I - 07-30-2011, 08:44 PM



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