Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(07-30-2011, 11:55 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Melkite, you are proposing contradictions when there are none.

First of all, Human nature has the capacity to resist God's grace. Given. In fact in cases where grace is given to perform some lesser task not related to salvation, it often is resisted. But when GOd WILLS a man to be saved, his will is not challenged by our freedom.

For example, say a man has a violent disposition, and I KNOW he will always retaliate when struck. If I strike him KNOWING his response, do I force that response? THe man retains the capacity for self-control, but because of his nature and disposition, he will in effect never use it. THerefore, whenever I act, he reacts as I have foreseen.

Similarly, God knows how to give grace to the will of man that is VVictorious in its effect: The Delight of grace. ALl men seek the good, even if they seek it wrongly. THerefore, if they can be shown that grace is good, they infallibly incline to it, though they MAY resist it. But in fact, none will; because GOd makes his grace seem good to a man, moving the will without REmoving freedom. For he knows how to appeal to our hearts and to our desire for the good, the true, and the beautiful. Thus, the victorious delight of God's grace is nothing less than God making that grace delightful for each man, and therefore victorious for each man.

In this way, God moves the will without supplanting freedom. Does knowing the outcome of an effect remove the potential for a different effect? No. Rather, knowing the effect of Grace on the heart of each man, God knows where to "apply pressure" so to speak, so that each man, drawn and wooed by his grace infallibly inclines to it, yet retains the capacity to resist it, even if he in fact NEVER DOES.

That is the teaching of Augustine. Grace is not intrinsically irresistable, it is intrinsically efficacious because of the KIND of grace it is.

But here you said: "If it is impossible to choose Christ, then it is not their choice that they go to hell.  If our nature is altered so that it is impossible for us to escape hell, then it is a fallacy to say we chose hell, because had we not, there would have been nothing we could do to escape it.  There is no choice on your part if you are only presented with one option.  You contradict yourself in this statement by saying that the reprobate have chosen and they chose themselves, when at the same time you say they do not choose Christ because the Father chose not to draw them.  You can't have it both ways; either man is guilty for not choosing God because he was free to choose or reject him, or God is guilty for man not choosing him, because he withheld the grace that was absolutely necessary for man to even choose God."

Hang on, I NEVER SAID what you think I said.

ALlow me to reiterate: THe fundamental working principle for AUgustine is the maxim: "Afte rthe fall, man CANNOT, NOT Sin." In other words, sin is unavoidable for fallen man. THerefore it is unavoidable that he be unpleasing to God in his actions, to say nothing of Original sin, which is from birth. Man does not have the capacity to aspire to God apart from grace. All men are condemned because of their guilt for sharing in Adam's sin. Therefore it is just that all are condemned. Now man COULD want God in a limited way, but it would only be for purely selfish reasons. man is unable to be pleasing to God without grace, therefore he cannot escape hell without grace.

DOn't you believe all men are condemned to hell from conception? If not, then you hold to Pelagianism. If so, then you hold to Augustine, and THE DOGMA OF THE CHURCH.

NOw, if NO MAN can be saved without grace, how is it amazing that none are saved except those whom he has called? ANd what is so amazing about the fact that "Many are called, but few are chosen"?

If NO MAN comes unto Christ unless drawn by the father, then it is equally clear that there are some NOT drawn by the father, for our Lord did not say "All men come unto me and are drawn by the father." He speaks of some who are drawn, and implies others are not. THis is God's good pleasure.

May we all die in the State of Grace!

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by wulfrano - 07-31-2011, 03:48 AM

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