Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(07-30-2011, 09:13 PM)Melkite Wrote: My question still stands: Doesn't the ratification of the AUgustinian tenests in the west by the western Fathers hold just as true as the Ratification of the theology of Cassian/ The Gregories, Chrysostom in the East? Why not if not?

If you mean the Latin Fathers agreeing and adopting the Augustinian view, then yes.

"I don't think the issue for us in the East is that our salvation has to be initiated by God.  That's not a problem at all. What is a problem is suggesting that God chooses to withhold grace to someone whom he foreknows would choose to accept him if he were to give him the grace to do so.  Or that if he would give him the grace to do so, that such grace would be irresistable.  Either one, in reality, nullifies free will.  It makes it so that one's salvation is soley the good pleasure of God, which Walty believes, if I understand him correctly, is the only correct option.  It's that idea that I don't think there is any real patristic support for.  Is there anyone, East or West, that teaches that in the same manner as St. Augustine?"

Okay, Augustine teaches NEITHER of these propositions!

Walty and Vetus seem to think otherwise.  Who is wrong, you or they?

2. You make the mistake of assuming two other things here: a. That the reprobate would desire God. b. That the Victorious delight of God's grace is not resistible by the human will.

Let's take a). The reprobate do not desire to please God, for they do not desire to come to him. "No man comes to me unless the father draws them." Therefore, those who the Father does NOT draw do not WANT Christ. They have no desire for him. In fact, they get exactly what they DO want: The results of living for themselves alone. There is no assault on the freedom of choice here, because the reprobate HAVE chosen; and they choose themselves. All through their life, and all the way to hell.

If it is impossible to choose Christ, then it is not their choice that they go to hell.  If our nature is altered so that it is impossible for us to escape hell, then it is a fallacy to say we chose hell, because had we not, there would have been nothing we could do to escape it.  There is no choice on your part if you are only presented with one option.  You contradict yourself in this statement by saying that the reprobate have chosen and they chose themselves, when at the same time you say they do not choose Christ because the Father chose not to draw them.  You can't have it both ways; either man is guilty for not choosing God because he was free to choose or reject him, or God is guilty for man not choosing him, because he withheld the grace that was absolutely necessary for man to even choose God.

b.) When GOd grants his grace to a man, man experiences the grace of God as a victorious delight in the soul. This grace of God acts upon man's will so that the will infallibly inclines toward God. NEVERTHELESS, even if God's grace is INFALLIBLY efficacious, it is not irresistibly so. The human will still MUST retain the CAPACITY to resist the will of God. Augustine simply believes it never does, though it always remains possible. It is irresistible in FACT, but not in itself. Within the Augustinian theology, Grace can act either morally upon the will of man, or physically. Augustine was never clear how he envisioned this. I take the view that God acts upon the human will, and physically moves it, but in such a way that it is made FREE, so it can FREELY choose him.

Well, in that case, then, God's grace is in effect irresistible.  It is untenable to say that God's grace is irresistible, but no one ever resists God's grace.  At that point, you are talking about an abstract hypothetical, not a reality.

The Church has condemned the notion that the human will does not have the capacity to resist the grace of God. But it does not condemn, and in fact the greater teaching is, that his Will to convert is infallible in its effect.

This directly contradicts what you said in the beginning about St. Augustine teaching neither that grace was irresistible nor that Christ chose not to save some whom he foreknew would choose him with his grace.

The Domincans are far superior to the Jesuits as regards explaining the Grace of God.

Messages In This Thread
Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by wulfrano - 07-31-2011, 05:48 PM

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)