Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(07-31-2011, 08:18 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-30-2011, 11:55 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Melkite, you are proposing contradictions when there are none.

First of all, Human nature has the capacity to resist God's grace. Given. In fact in cases where grace is given to perform some lesser task not related to salvation, it often is resisted. But when GOd WILLS a man to be saved, his will is not challenged by our freedom.

For example, say a man has a violent disposition, and I KNOW he will always retaliate when struck. If I strike him KNOWING his response, do I force that response? THe man retains the capacity for self-control, but because of his nature and disposition, he will in effect never use it. THerefore, whenever I act, he reacts as I have foreseen.

Similarly, God knows how to give grace to the will of man that is VVictorious in its effect: The Delight of grace. ALl men seek the good, even if they seek it wrongly. THerefore, if they can be shown that grace is good, they infallibly incline to it, though they MAY resist it. But in fact, none will; because GOd makes his grace seem good to a man, moving the will without REmoving freedom. For he knows how to appeal to our hearts and to our desire for the good, the true, and the beautiful. Thus, the victorious delight of God's grace is nothing less than God making that grace delightful for each man, and therefore victorious for each man.

In this way, God moves the will without supplanting freedom. Does knowing the outcome of an effect remove the potential for a different effect? No. Rather, knowing the effect of Grace on the heart of each man, God knows where to "apply pressure" so to speak, so that each man, drawn and wooed by his grace infallibly inclines to it, yet retains the capacity to resist it, even if he in fact NEVER DOES.

That is the teaching of Augustine. Grace is not intrinsically irresistable, it is intrinsically efficacious because of the KIND of grace it is.

But here you said: "If it is impossible to choose Christ, then it is not their choice that they go to hell.  If our nature is altered so that it is impossible for us to escape hell, then it is a fallacy to say we chose hell, because had we not, there would have been nothing we could do to escape it.  There is no choice on your part if you are only presented with one option.  You contradict yourself in this statement by saying that the reprobate have chosen and they chose themselves, when at the same time you say they do not choose Christ because the Father chose not to draw them.  You can't have it both ways; either man is guilty for not choosing God because he was free to choose or reject him, or God is guilty for man not choosing him, because he withheld the grace that was absolutely necessary for man to even choose God."

Hang on, I NEVER SAID what you think I said.

ALlow me to reiterate: THe fundamental working principle for AUgustine is the maxim: "Afte rthe fall, man CANNOT, NOT Sin." In other words, sin is unavoidable for fallen man. THerefore it is unavoidable that he be unpleasing to God in his actions, to say nothing of Original sin, which is from birth. Man does not have the capacity to aspire to God apart from grace. All men are condemned because of their guilt for sharing in Adam's sin. Therefore it is just that all are condemned. Now man COULD want God in a limited way, but it would only be for purely selfish reasons. man is unable to be pleasing to God without grace, therefore he cannot escape hell without grace.

DOn't you believe all men are condemned to hell from conception? If not, then you hold to Pelagianism. If so, then you hold to Augustine, and THE DOGMA OF THE CHURCH.

NOw, if NO MAN can be saved without grace, how is it amazing that none are saved except those whom he has called? ANd what is so amazing about the fact that "Many are called, but few are chosen"?

If NO MAN comes unto Christ unless drawn by the father, then it is equally clear that there are some NOT drawn by the father, for our Lord did not say "All men come unto me and are drawn by the father." He speaks of some who are drawn, and implies others are not. THis is God's good pleasure.

This just keeps getting worse and worse.  You explain what Augustine means very well, in a way that when I first read it, I thought, "oh hey, that's not really that bad."  But after I thought about it a while, here's the problem I still see with it.  If God chooses some and not others, then that means that some people will go to heaven, because God is giving them the grace to desire him, and even though it is intrinsically resistable, practically it isn't.  So those people are predestined to heaven.  Then those he does not show, well, there is no way someone can avoid hell on their own because they are conceived condemned, so they are predestined to hell.  The problem there is that it removes any incentive to work for one's salvation.  Knowing that heaven or hell is entirely up to me is the only reason there is for me to avoid sin.  I can't know whether I am predestined to heaven or hell, but God knows, and if he has chosen me, then he will give me grace to turn to him that I won't resist, even though I could, but I won't.  If I'm predestined to hell, there's nothing I can do so my case is hopeless.  Either way, I should go out and live how I want, because if I'm going to go to hell, I'm going to be punished unspeakably for all eternity for the horrendous crime of being conceived, so I should at least get a little enjoyment out of my existance while I can, because there will be none once I die.  If I'm predestined to heaven, it doesn't matter how I live, because I know if I am chosen by God, at some point in my life, he will give me grace to desire him over the good things of the world, and he will give it to me knowing that I won't resist it.  So, either way, if predestination is true, living a virtuous life is absolutely pointless, because whether in a state of grace, virtue or the lack thereof will not alter your predestined judgement.  Or does the predestined to hell living a virtuous life mean for them an unspeakable eternity of punishment that isn't quite as unspeakable as if they hadn't been virtuous, or living a non-virtuous life for those predestined to heaven mean an amazingly spectacular existance in heaven better than anything we can experience on earth, but not quite as spectacular they would have received if they had been virtuous?

No matter how you say it.  The fact is that God loves all and He wants all to be with Him forever. It's up to us to love Him in return .  Some have a better chance than others.  But everyone will have their chance.

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by wulfrano - 07-31-2011, 08:41 PM

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