Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(08-04-2011, 11:19 PM)Doce Me Wrote: [b]Saints on earth have enjoyed something like what you speak of above and further below (faintly analogous to the Beatific Vision on earth), for example St. Augustine in his conversion.  But I don't think we (or the elect) all do. I think efficacious and Sanctifying Grace can leave at least our  mind still seeing God very faintly, struggling through temptation,  tempted by the world.  Our soul is another matter, but our will and mind are still weak and we  can fall. 

I seem to recall Gregory speaking of a similar overwhelming and irresistible spiritual experience in the elect.  Perhaps you both have had such an experience. I don't think it is essential for salvation although it is momentous and desirable and may imply or cause great holiness

I think that it is not God's irresistible goodness beheld by us that "moves" our will in every instance of efficacious grace in our soul, but God Himself who moves it in its natural way, freely, not in any way forcing it.  Of course he moves it (and we do, with Him) TO Himself who IS irresistible goodness if  only we could see it.  God's will is the primary cause of our will's moving freely; we are the secondary cause.  God causes all things down to the least detail, even when we or some other creature or series of creatures cause it down to the least detail. He is primary cause, we are the secondary cause.  This is hard enough to understand (never in full) for most things.  When it comes to God's moving our will it becomes a true mystery.  It seems that God is ultimately forcing our will.  Melkite's view is more than understandable.   (See previous post of mine, I think 260, for a quote from St. Thomas)

But accepting efficacious grace IS OUR WILLING too, our act of love for God. God does not remove the goodness or freedom in OUR will  when He causes that goodness.

To me the heart of the matter is TWO seemingly contradictory TRUTHS that are BOTH UNDENIABLY TRUE:   We do have free will and God has absolute power and is the primary cause of all things, including our willing.  The result is a MYSTERY.  Accept both sides of the mystery, and don't think you can ever explain them with complete satisfaction in this life.. not that we can't try to understand better.


An ex-Catholic friend of mine from college who converted to Calvinism tried to describe it to me as like either a quilt or a cross stitch (I don't remember which one, this was 11 years ago.)  She said free will and predestination are like the opposite sides of a cross stitch, we only see the side that's supposed to be seen, but God sees the other side where all the colors in place that tell you where this or that thread is supposed to be stitched.  Or like a quilt where we see one teeny tiny fragment, but God has put them all together and the beauty comes from all the pieces together as a whole, each piece not having much beauty except for its orchestrated relation to the rest.

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by Melkite - 08-04-2011, 11:33 PM

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