Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(08-05-2011, 06:55 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 01:09 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 10:34 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 10:10 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 09:08 PM)Melkite Wrote: Inpefess, I see two possible holes in your argument off the top of my head.  If it were practically impossible to resist the good once it has been seen, then the original sin would presumably never have taken place. 

No. Efficacious grace does not mean one will never sin. It means that one will persevere to the end such that, in the end, he will choose good.

Quote: The Original sin took place because Adam, who saw the good as perfectly as he was capable, resisted it anyway, and was tempted to resist it by one who saw everything the elect will see,

Adam didn't see the Beatific Vision before he fell.


and presumably more that no man shall ever see, and also resisted the good as well.  If good were inherently irresistable once seen, neither fall should ever have taken place.

See above.

Satan was the highest of angels, how could he not have seen God?

None of the angels have seen God; nor will they ever. They enjoy His presence but they do not behold the Beatific Vision.

They envy man with a holy envy because we have the ability to see God and they cannot.

What exactly is the beatific vision then?  I always thought that was just a fruity way of connoting heaven.  At any rate, it doesn't make sense for the cherubim and seraphim to constantly serve the throne of God if they can't see what they're doing.

The demons don't envy man because we can see God and they can't.  They see him too.  They envy us because God gave us the power of creation, not them.

INP answered this question above by expandin on his original statement, saying that the angels couldn't see God at first.  He didn't mean they couldn't and can't see Him at all- which is what I thougt he said to begin with
More Catholic Discussion:

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.

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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by Mithrandylan - 08-05-2011, 09:05 AM

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