Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism?
(08-05-2011, 03:49 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 06:55 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 01:09 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 10:34 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 10:10 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 09:08 PM)Melkite Wrote: Inpefess, I see two possible holes in your argument off the top of my head.  If it were practically impossible to resist the good once it has been seen, then the original sin would presumably never have taken place. 

No. Efficacious grace does not mean one will never sin. It means that one will persevere to the end such that, in the end, he will choose good.

Quote: The Original sin took place because Adam, who saw the good as perfectly as he was capable, resisted it anyway, and was tempted to resist it by one who saw everything the elect will see,

Adam didn't see the Beatific Vision before he fell.


and presumably more that no man shall ever see, and also resisted the good as well.  If good were inherently irresistable once seen, neither fall should ever have taken place.

See above.

Satan was the highest of angels, how could he not have seen God?

None of the angels have seen God; nor will they ever. They enjoy His presence but they do not behold the Beatific Vision.

They envy man with a holy envy because we have the ability to see God and they cannot.

What exactly is the beatific vision then?  I always thought that was just a fruity way of connoting heaven.  At any rate, it doesn't make sense for the cherubim and seraphim to constantly serve the throne of God if they can't see what they're doing.

The Beatific Vision is beholding the face of God. The angels were created in Heaven, in the presence of God, but could not actually see His face until they confirmed the grace with which they had been born by their first act of charity (by choosing to serve God). 

Quote:The demons don't envy man because we can see God and they can't.  They see him too.  They envy us because God gave us the power of creation, not them.

The demons do not see God. That is their biggest torment. There can be no suffering, anguish, or loss of God while beholding the face of God. If they could see God, they would not be in hell; nor would they have any suffering.

Their loss of the opportunity to see God is their primary torment. We can't understand this because our intellects can't fully comprehend the perfect joy of seeing God, but the superior intellects of the angels know exactly what they lost by choosing to forfeit (through their refusal to serve Him after they were created) their opportunity to see God.


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Re: Can we extricate ourselves from Molinism? - by wulfrano - 08-05-2011, 04:07 PM

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