The SSPX Talks With Rome Are Not a Failure
#21
(07-27-2011, 03:22 PM)SaintSophia Wrote: Well the Church is not made solely up of those men. Its everyone who professes and practices the actual foundations of the Faith who are the Church. There are many Catholics who have stayed strong in there faith through all of this...

Also the Church will never fail, so that only leaves men who can fail.

Not solely no.  But fundamentally.  It is an ESSENTIAL mark of the Church to be ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC.

The heirachy are an essential part of the Church.  Otherwise protestants have a strong argument.
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#22
(07-27-2011, 03:23 PM)SaintSophia Wrote: Well you can't talk to or hold God either...

But God has not contradicted himself.

If he did I would wonder whether he was God.  Truth seems to me to be an absolute thing or a worthless construct.
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#23
(07-27-2011, 03:14 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:02 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: How can you seriously contend that the SSPX is under interdict, when they're practically the only organization in Western Europe that actually obeys and respects the person and office of the Pope?

The Photian Schism took hundreds of years to heal and the most recent one is still in effect.  Church history, much?

History much... yes. Photius and his followers were heretics and rightly considered outside the Church by such definition. Are you contending by such comparison that the SSPX and its founder were heretical or that the body they broke from were heretical?
  Not heretical, schismatic. Doctrine, much?
Quote:Why have an argument about it (interdict) for 20 years, when it is easy to verify in the Archbishops own writings. When he got the notice to cease all his priestly activities and was forbidden to say mass, he actually quoted it in a sermon 1970s. I can find it for you if you want. Do you want me to do that for you?
You mean you wished that he'd shut up and egaged in the conceit of false obedience when there are Bishops who do far worse things than teach orthodox doctrines and say the Immemorial Mass of all Ages.  In other words, it shouldn't take twenty years to figure out that some Bishops who are heretical go unpunished, even make the rules, while those who are orthodox are punished, censured, isolated and even destroyed.  Why not notice the immense disparity between your fulsome insistence that Archbishop Lefebvre obey the Church, while you infer that Bishops in "full communion" need not?
Quote:In addition to that, every other week it seems like someone at the Vatican confirms that the SSPX has no priestly mission or jurisdiction to provide sacraments anywhere in the world. Every time there is an SSPX ordination ceremony it is condemned.

Never the less, the SSPX has been growing and confirming its mission, despite hostile forces both in secular society and within  the Church itself.
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#24
(07-27-2011, 03:23 PM)Peter J Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:02 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: The Photian Schism took hundreds of years to heal and the most recent one is still in effect. 

Surely you meant to say that it lasted decades.


Something bad happening twice does not strengthen the argument that it cannot happen or indeed that is did not happen both times.  Besides, I am in no position to judge what happened in history.  History is written by the victors.  I can however judge my own life experience.
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#25
I guess what i mean is that even though the Church isnt THE Truth, Jesus promised the Church would always continue...maybe faltering, but always coming back to the fullness of the Truth.

like i said its the 6th covenant, just like Israel was the 5th....and Israel faltered in its time too, so history repeats in a way
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#26
(07-27-2011, 03:29 PM)ggreg Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:23 PM)Peter J Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:02 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: The Photian Schism took hundreds of years to heal and the most recent one is still in effect. 

Surely you meant to say that it lasted decades.


Something bad happening twice does not strengthen the argument that it cannot happen.  Besides, I am in no position to judge what happened in history.  History is written by the victors.  I can however judge my own life experience.

The axe that was ground in the Photian schism is the same one ground later. in 1054
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#27
But Saint Sophia you only know about that promise because of men.  Who err.

The Church, the construct, did not write down and print that promise for you to hear it in the 20th Century.  Men did.
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#28
Obviously without faith you won't believe in anything. ..."I believe in order to understand" St. Anslem

but the inerrancy of the Bible is handed down through Tradition, accuracy of the texts, and the Bible
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#29
(07-27-2011, 03:29 PM)ggreg Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:23 PM)Peter J Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:02 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: The Photian Schism took hundreds of years to heal and the most recent one is still in effect. 

Surely you meant to say that it lasted decades.


Something bad happening twice does not strengthen the argument that it cannot happen or indeed that is did not happen both times.  Besides, I am in no position to judge what happened in history.  History is written by the victors.  I can however judge my own life experience.

I think it's a very valid point, to say that when a schism occurs you shouldn't expect it to be resolved just like that :snap fingers: (But I think Augstine Baker got a little carried away when he said that the Photian Schism lasted centuries. It started an ended in the 9th century.)
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#30
(07-27-2011, 03:33 PM)ggreg Wrote: But Saint Sophia you only know about that promise because of men.  Who err.

The Church, the construct, did not write down and print that promise for you to hear it in the 20th Century.  Men did.

We only know everything the Church has ever taught because of men... including the entirety of the Bible, that Saturn is a planetary object, that milk takes microbial digestion to make curd, and that there are stupid little things like electrons.

If you want to throw out all knowledge that comes from erring man, then find a stone so that you can fish old school.

The whole miracle of the Church is that She is without any error in her teaching despite the failings of men - it is a miracle given us by God, and its Truth has run the test of time.  
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