The SSPX Talks With Rome Are Not a Failure
#41
(07-27-2011, 04:01 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:51 PM)ggreg Wrote: How could one judge the Church to be in error, if objectively that was so?

If one could not ever have the authority to judge, then how could the Church ever be proven to be in error?

That's just it - one cannot ever judge the Church to be in error objectively, because the Church cannot error.

So how is it different than a cult then, where the cult leader says I am God even though the building is burning and your children are on fire?

Non Catholics must laugh at this sort of statement in light of the abuse scandals of the last few years.

If there is ever a position where "one cannot ever judge", even when prima facie evidence is slapping you in the face, then human reason is useless.  Nobody here can accuse a cult member of foolishness when ultimately they would suspend their reason for the sake of their faith.  The cult member is convinced that the cult leader is god.
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#42
(07-27-2011, 04:09 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: In being honest with ourselves, it is historical fact that Archbishop Lefebvre acknowledged a receipt a notice of interdict and that he was forbidden to say mass.

Then you agree that the Church had no right to do this?

I completely disagree. The Catholic Church has THE right to rule in Faith and Discipline. Interdict over whole countries has been used in the past to effect obedience. For a disobedient archbishop, the Catholic Church would have the proper jurisdiction.

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#43
(07-27-2011, 04:16 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:09 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: In being honest with ourselves, it is historical fact that Archbishop Lefebvre acknowledged a receipt a notice of interdict and that he was forbidden to say mass.

Then you agree that the Church had no right to do this?

I completely disagree. The Catholic Church has THE right to rule in Faith and Discipline. Interdict over whole countries has been used in the past to effect obedience. For a disobedient archbishop, the Catholic Church would have the proper jurisdiction.

And Interdict was used against St. Athanasius as well.  Are you proposing that the authorities in the Church acting against its best interest can not be resisted?
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#44
(07-27-2011, 04:15 PM)ggreg Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:01 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:51 PM)ggreg Wrote: How could one judge the Church to be in error, if objectively that was so?

If one could not ever have the authority to judge, then how could the Church ever be proven to be in error?

That's just it - one cannot ever judge the Church to be in error objectively, because the Church cannot error.

So how is it different than a cult then, where the cult leader says I am God even though the building is burning and your children are on fire?

Non Catholics must laugh at this sort of statement in light of the abuse scandals of the last few years.

If there is ever a position where "one cannot ever judge", even when prima facie evidence is slapping you in the face, then human reason is useless.  Nobody here can accuse a cult member of foolishness when ultimately they would suspend their reason for the sake of their faith.  The cult member is convinced that the cult leader is god.

You misinterpreted my point. If the building is burning down around you and children are screaming, then you can't be in the true Church. Make that judgement by all means. Just know that you are not judging the true Church - you are judging a facsimile of her.
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#45
It's a pity he left, he could have tried working through the Church to lead it back to the TLM
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#46
If you don't act like a Catholic, then the title means nothing
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#47
(07-27-2011, 04:18 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:15 PM)ggreg Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:01 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:51 PM)ggreg Wrote: How could one judge the Church to be in error, if objectively that was so?

If one could not ever have the authority to judge, then how could the Church ever be proven to be in error?

That's just it - one cannot ever judge the Church to be in error objectively, because the Church cannot error.

So how is it different than a cult then, where the cult leader says I am God even though the building is burning and your children are on fire?

Non Catholics must laugh at this sort of statement in light of the abuse scandals of the last few years.

If there is ever a position where "one cannot ever judge", even when prima facie evidence is slapping you in the face, then human reason is useless.  Nobody here can accuse a cult member of foolishness when ultimately they would suspend their reason for the sake of their faith.  The cult member is convinced that the cult leader is god.

You misinterpreted my point. If the building is burning down around you and children are screaming, then you can't be in the true Church. Make that judgement by all means. Just know that you are not judging the true Church - you are judging a facsimile of her.

Oh--  a Sede...ok, never mind.
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#48
(07-27-2011, 04:18 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:16 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:09 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: In being honest with ourselves, it is historical fact that Archbishop Lefebvre acknowledged a receipt a notice of interdict and that he was forbidden to say mass.

Then you agree that the Church had no right to do this?

I completely disagree. The Catholic Church has THE right to rule in Faith and Discipline. Interdict over whole countries has been used in the past to effect obedience. For a disobedient archbishop, the Catholic Church would have the proper jurisdiction.

And Interdict was used against St. Athanasius as well.  Are you proposing that the authorities in the Church acting against its best interest can not be resisted?

I don't recall Athanasius being placed under interdict by the Roman Church - and any interdict from the Arians would be mute as they are not part of the Church.

I assert that the Church in Her official acts cannot act against Her own best interests.
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#49
(07-27-2011, 04:20 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:18 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:15 PM)ggreg Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:01 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:51 PM)ggreg Wrote: How could one judge the Church to be in error, if objectively that was so?

If one could not ever have the authority to judge, then how could the Church ever be proven to be in error?

That's just it - one cannot ever judge the Church to be in error objectively, because the Church cannot error.

So how is it different than a cult then, where the cult leader says I am God even though the building is burning and your children are on fire?

Non Catholics must laugh at this sort of statement in light of the abuse scandals of the last few years.

If there is ever a position where "one cannot ever judge", even when prima facie evidence is slapping you in the face, then human reason is useless.  Nobody here can accuse a cult member of foolishness when ultimately they would suspend their reason for the sake of their faith.  The cult member is convinced that the cult leader is god.

You misinterpreted my point. If the building is burning down around you and children are screaming, then you can't be in the true Church. Make that judgement by all means. Just know that you are not judging the true Church - you are judging a facsimile of her.

Oh--  a Sede...ok, never mind.

Pretty quick to through labels around aren't you. You know jack about me, and clearly jump to conclusions (not for the first time).

You are in denial. What's your answer to ggreg, O historically and doctrinally informed and omnipotent one?
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#50
(07-27-2011, 04:18 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:15 PM)ggreg Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 04:01 PM)Aenigmata in Tenebris Wrote:
(07-27-2011, 03:51 PM)ggreg Wrote: How could one judge the Church to be in error, if objectively that was so?

If one could not ever have the authority to judge, then how could the Church ever be proven to be in error?

That's just it - one cannot ever judge the Church to be in error objectively, because the Church cannot error.

So how is it different than a cult then, where the cult leader says I am God even though the building is burning and your children are on fire?

Non Catholics must laugh at this sort of statement in light of the abuse scandals of the last few years.

If there is ever a position where "one cannot ever judge", even when prima facie evidence is slapping you in the face, then human reason is useless.  Nobody here can accuse a cult member of foolishness when ultimately they would suspend their reason for the sake of their faith.  The cult member is convinced that the cult leader is god.

You misinterpreted my point. If the building is burning down around you and children are screaming, then you can't be in the true Church. Make that judgement by all means. Just know that you are not judging the true Church - you are judging a facsimile of her.

Right, so were the 100s of millions of Catholics who lost their faith since the 1960s (including my entire school year of 180 pupils who have ALL lapsed) in the true Church or the false facsimile one?  Because as far as I can tell they went along to the same building, went to the same mass and received the same sacraments from the same priests and vessels as the Catholics who remained practising.  They were also taught the same new ideas that contradicted the old ideas.

I did not misrepresent your point.  Your point is a circular argument.  The world cannot be round because it is flat.  If you say it is round or claim that you sailed to the west and circumnavigated a globe, then you are in error because it is flat.  God told us so.

Or, the earth is in the centre of the solar system and does not move.  It says this in the Bible and the Church judges the Bible and the Church cannot err and therefore if you claim the earth orbits the Sun you are wrong, because the Church cannot be wrong,

Fast forward several hundred years and the Head of the Church is apologising for the Church being wrong.  But he is in error to do this and the Church is still error free.

All a bit too convenient.  Seems like this Church is Teflon coated and nothing that it ever does can be made to stick to it, because it always has a straw man to blame in a bad priest or a bad Pope or ALL of them being bad/weak/in error.
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