Voris responds to Shea... This is getting good
#51
(07-30-2011, 11:59 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: Point being, you can be a heretic and have the  Liturgy and an Orthodox Catholic and not have the Liturgy.

I don't think that is fair. I think it really goes like:

1. have access to the Mass, but no access to the Church's teaching, thus falling into ignorance (not formal heresy)
2. be knowledgeable about the faith, but have no access to the Mass, thus participating in the Sacrifice and receiving the Blessed Sacrament only rarely (without actually sinning against the Third Commandment)

Both are sad scenarios. But at least the first person gets the graces of the Sacrament.
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#52
(07-31-2011, 12:04 AM)m.PR Wrote:
(07-30-2011, 11:59 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: Point being, you can be a heretic and have the  Liturgy and an Orthodox Catholic and not have the Liturgy.

I don't think that is fair. I think it really goes like:

1. have access to the Mass, but no access to the Church's teaching, thus falling into ignorance (not formal heresy)
2. be knowledgeable about the faith, but have no access to the Mass, thus participating in the Sacrifice and receiving the Blessed Sacrament only rarely (without actually sinning against the Third Commandment)

Both are sad scenarios. But at least the first person gets the graces of the Sacrament.

Everyone has access to Church teaching.
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#53
Augstine Baker Wrote:Unless one is severely impeded? Surely you realize the canonical expectations with respect to distance traveled?

Surely you realize that is part of what the Church considers an impediment worthy of dispensation?

Augstine Baker Wrote:Does that canon require you to attend the NO?

The situation we are currently in is quite unprecedented in the history of the Church and I'm afraid I'll simply defer to those more intelligent than I or to future figures of authority who acknowledge and address this crisis.

Quote:Anyhow, this is simply proof that I can hold the Catholic Faith without the Liturgy.  One is superior to the other and more essential to your salvation.

Lots of people have the Catholic Faith without ever having seen a priest, much less a Mass or even a TLM.

Have you no comprehension of what public worship is? The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Divine Office (the two sanctioned forms of Liturgy) dispense grace to all members of Holy Mother Church, even those who are physically incapable of attending through no fault of their own. So the answer here is no. No, no Catholic could ever even hope to possess the theological virtue of faith without the grace of our Lord with the Sacraments being the most efficacious conduit, given to us by Christ Himself.

You need dogma and worship.
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#54
Augstine Baker Wrote:Everyone has access to Church teaching.

... and every Catholic in a state of grace has access to the graces of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass even when not in physical attendance through no fault of his own. The dogmatic teachings of the Church are for the benefit of conforming souls to the truth of Holy Mother Church. However, this knowledge is not an end in and of itself. It is a knowledge that should compel man to do what he was made to do: to love and render worship and honor to his Creator in the rites and ceremonies He has given us through His Church. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the very soul and engine of the Church that propitiates the wrath of God the Father. There is no other act more infinitely efficacious for man's salvation.
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#55
(07-31-2011, 12:29 AM)Joshua Wrote:
Augstine Baker Wrote:Everyone has access to Church teaching.

... and every Catholic in a state of grace has access to the graces of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass even when not in physical attendance through no fault of his own. The dogmatic teachings of the Church are for the benefit of conforming souls to the truth of Holy Mother Church. However, this knowledge is not an end in and of itself. It is a knowledge that should compel man to do what he was made to do: to love and render worship and honor to his Creator in the rites and ceremonies He has given us through His Church. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the very soul and engine of the Church that propitiates the wrath of God the Father. There is no other act more infinitely efficacious for man's salvation.

As I said, you can have all the liturgies you want and still not have the Catholic Faith.
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#56
(07-31-2011, 12:37 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote:
(07-31-2011, 12:29 AM)Joshua Wrote:
Augstine Baker Wrote:Everyone has access to Church teaching.

... and every Catholic in a state of grace has access to the graces of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass even when not in physical attendance through no fault of his own. The dogmatic teachings of the Church are for the benefit of conforming souls to the truth of Holy Mother Church. However, this knowledge is not an end in and of itself. It is a knowledge that should compel man to do what he was made to do: to love and render worship and honor to his Creator in the rites and ceremonies He has given us through His Church. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the very soul and engine of the Church that propitiates the wrath of God the Father. There is no other act more infinitely efficacious for man's salvation.

As I said, you can have all the liturgies you want and still not have the Catholic Faith.

As I said, you can have the most thorough and sublime understanding of every tenet of the faith (as the devil himself possesses) and still face damnation. We were created by God to love and render worship to Him. Liturgy was given to us by Christ and is a manifestation of an intimation of the teachings of the Church. Dogma is not an end in and of itself. It is neither inferior or superior to liturgy. Man's soul requires both in equal quantity (and quality) for his salvation.

A Church with worship and no dogma is a false Church. A Church with dogma and no worship is a false Church. Your take on the matter is a false dichotomy through and through and derives from a deficient understanding of the manner in which man comes to assent to the teachings of the Church.
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#57
(07-31-2011, 12:53 AM)Joshua Wrote:
(07-31-2011, 12:37 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote:
(07-31-2011, 12:29 AM)Joshua Wrote:
Augstine Baker Wrote:Everyone has access to Church teaching.

... and every Catholic in a state of grace has access to the graces of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass even when not in physical attendance through no fault of his own. The dogmatic teachings of the Church are for the benefit of conforming souls to the truth of Holy Mother Church. However, this knowledge is not an end in and of itself. It is a knowledge that should compel man to do what he was made to do: to love and render worship and honor to his Creator in the rites and ceremonies He has given us through His Church. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the very soul and engine of the Church that propitiates the wrath of God the Father. There is no other act more infinitely efficacious for man's salvation.

As I said, you can have all the liturgies you want and still not have the Catholic Faith.

As I said, you can have the most thorough and sublime understanding of every tenet of the faith (as the devil himself possesses) and still face damnation. We were created by God to love and render worship to Him. Liturgy was given to us by Christ and is a manifestation of an intimation of the teachings of the Church. Dogma is not an end in and of itself. It is neither inferior or superior to liturgy. Man's soul requires both in equal quantity (and quality) for his salvation.

A Church with worship and no dogma is a false Church. A Church with dogma and no worship is a false Church. Your take on the matter is a false dichotomy through and through and derives from a deficient understanding of the manner in which man comes to assent to the teachings of the Church.

Without Dogmas, you can't express the structure and the meaning of the Liturgy.  I think that's pretty clear.

And having the Catholic Faith also implies that you practice it, which includes fulfilling the tenets of the Church.
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#58
Augstine Baker Wrote:Without Dogmas, you can't express the structure and the meaning of the Liturgy.  I think that's pretty clear.

It is pretty clear. That is my point. The relationship between Dogma and Liturgy is reciprocal and symbiotic. One is not less essential than the other. Dogma is used to express the intricate meaning and beauty of the liturgy. Whereas compelling man to worship our Lord (in conformity with His rites) is the principal end and purpose of all dogma. In addition, it is the inexpressible merit of the liturgy that provides the most efficacious means of grace for man to accept Catholic dogma.
Augstine Baker Wrote:And having the Catholic Faith also implies that you practice it, which includes fulfilling the tenets of the Church.

We were not speaking of possessing the Catholic faith. Having the Catholic faith implies an equal reverence and necessity for both dogma and liturgy. What we we're discussing was the false dichotomy you and others are attempting to propagate between Dogma and Liturgy. If a Catholic does not profess the equal and absolute necessity of both, then he does not possess the Catholic faith in its entirety.
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#59
(07-31-2011, 03:29 AM)Joshua Wrote:
Augstine Baker Wrote:Without Dogmas, you can't express the structure and the meaning of the Liturgy.  I think that's pretty clear.

It is pretty clear. That is my point. The relationship between Dogma and Liturgy is reciprocal and symbiotic. One is not less essential than the other. Dogma is used to express the intricate meaning and beauty of the liturgy. Whereas compelling man to worship our Lord (in conformity with His rites) is the principal end and purpose of all dogma. In addition, it is the inexpressible merit of the liturgy that provides the most efficacious means of grace for man to accept Catholic dogma.
Augstine Baker Wrote:And having the Catholic Faith also implies that you practice it, which includes fulfilling the tenets of the Church.

We were not speaking of possessing the Catholic faith. Having the Catholic faith implies an equal reverence and necessity for both dogma and liturgy. What we we're discussing was the false dichotomy you and others are attempting to propagate between Dogma and Liturgy. If a Catholic does not profess the equal and absolute necessity of both, then he does not possess the Catholic faith in its entirety.

And I'm saying that Dogma and the Catholic Faith it is expressed in is more important than the Liturgy.  I've provided a couple of examples for this already.  Here is another: If I'm catechizing someone, I'm going to start with what must be believed, even before I get into the Liturgy, or talking about all that Micheal Davies stuff about comparing the NO to the TLM.  I may even encourage someone to attend the NO if there are no other Liturgies available, for example.  When talking to such a person, I can't even begin to talk about the Mass without the Dogmas, and while the Mass is an expression of those Dogmas, again, I can't even begin to talk about the Liturgy until I've explained the dogmas.

I'm also entering here into questions of which Liturgy, and that may be Maronite, Coptic, Chaldean, Syriac, Glagolithic and so on... it's all fairly significant, but it's the way it goes.
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#60
Al-right Voris!  Go get 'em, man!

Voris is de man.  I know of priests who follow his videos. 
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