Voris responds to Shea... This is getting good

[Vincentius]

I didn't see where Voris responded (directly) to Shea.  I don't think Voris would have liked to dignify a response to a half-baked Catholic like Shea.  Shea is still a closet Evangelican at heart.  He will never be fully catholic unless he throws back across the Tiber all that excess evangelical bagggage he brought with him to Rome.

[Revixit]

"Not approved" is the same thing they used on Fr. Gruner. This tells me this guy  Voris is on a wanted poster in the Lavendar Lizard Lounge.

tim

:laughing:  Has David Ickes written about the Lavender Lizard Lounge?

[Joshua]

... all the rest is just so much flower arranging and tea ceremony.

What are you referring to exactly?

Because a lot of trads don't really care about dogma and construct their own solipsistic criteria for who is and who isn't "trad".  I keep coming back to, who cares?

Practically speaking, does a refusal to accept religious liberty or believe in it put one out of the Church?  I doubt it very much.

It rapidly degenerates from there.

I see. I had thought you were referring to the manner in which the Mass is celebrated or to how true one is in adhering to the rubrics. I've run across several people on this forum who attempt to form a false dichotomy between dogma and liturgy. Neither can be separated from the other. In the East, it is the liturgy that guides dogma, not the other way around. In hindsight, one can see how this mindset may have done more in preserving the theological patrimony of the Church in the post-concilliar era.

[Augstine Baker]

... all the rest is just so much flower arranging and tea ceremony.

What are you referring to exactly?

Because a lot of trads don't really care about dogma and construct their own solipsistic criteria for who is and who isn't "trad".  I keep coming back to, who cares?

Practically speaking, does a refusal to accept religious liberty or believe in it put one out of the Church?  I doubt it very much.

It rapidly degenerates from there.

I see. I had thought you were referring to the manner in which the Mass is celebrated or to how true one is in adhering to the rubrics. I've run across several people on this forum who attempt to form a false dichotomy between dogma and liturgy. Neither can be separated from the other. In the East, it is the liturgy that guides dogma, not the other way around. In hindsight, one can see how this mindset may have done more in preserving the theological patrimony of the Church in the post-concilliar era.

Dogma is more important than Liturgy.  The Japanese  and Korean Catholic Church lived without much Liturgy for hundreds of years.

[Servire Deo]

... all the rest is just so much flower arranging and tea ceremony.

What are you referring to exactly?

Because a lot of trads don't really care about dogma and construct their own solipsistic criteria for who is and who isn't "trad".  I keep coming back to, who cares?

Practically speaking, does a refusal to accept religious liberty or believe in it put one out of the Church?  I doubt it very much.

It rapidly degenerates from there.

I see. I had thought you were referring to the manner in which the Mass is celebrated or to how true one is in adhering to the rubrics. I've run across several people on this forum who attempt to form a false dichotomy between dogma and liturgy. Neither can be separated from the other. In the East, it is the liturgy that guides dogma, not the other way around. In hindsight, one can see how this mindset may have done more in preserving the theological patrimony of the Church in the post-concilliar era.

Dogma is more important than Liturgy.  The Japanese  and Korean Catholic Church lived without much Liturgy for hundreds of years.

AB, you're going to anger the "salvation by Mass alone" pseudo-trads.

[Joshua]

Dogma is more important than Liturgy.  The Japanese  and Korean Catholic Church lived without much Liturgy for hundreds of years.

No it is not. What you are essentially saying is that dogma is more important than the worship of God. They are equal and indivisibly interrelated, yet distinct. The Church would be forgoing the very meaning of the word "religion" (Latin "religio" -respect for what is sacred) if it is devoid of the public worship of God (i.e. the Liturgy). The severe circumstances of individual Catholics or groups of Catholics does nothing to undermine the essentiality of the Liturgy. In fact, when missionaries began returning to Japan in the post-Meiji era (late 19th century), missionaries had found that a significant portion of Japanese Catholics had fallen back into ancestor worship and indigenous practices.

It would be easier for the world to survive without the Sun, than to do so without the Holy Mass - St. Padre Pio

Even God Himself could do nothing holier, better or greater than the Mass. - St. Alphonsus

The happiness of the world comes from the Sacrifice of the Mass. - St. Odo of Cluny

[Joshua]

AB, you're going to anger the "salvation by Mass alone" pseudo-trads.

I couldn't have asked for a more perfect example of the false dichotomy established by "pseudo-trads" between Dogma and Worship (Liturgy).

[Servire Deo]

You can go to the TLM day and night but if you deny dogma, you have no chance of entering Heaven.

[Augstine Baker]

Dogma is more important than Liturgy.  The Japanese  and Korean Catholic Church lived without much Liturgy for hundreds of years.

No it is not. What you are essentially saying is that dogma is more important than the worship of God. They are equal and indivisibly interrelated, yet distinct. The Church would be forgoing the very meaning of the word "religion" (Latin "religio" -respect for what is sacred) if it is devoid of the public worship of God (i.e. the Liturgy). The severe circumstances of individual Catholics or groups of Catholics does nothing to undermine the essentiality of the Liturgy. In fact, when missionaries began returning to Japan in the post-Meiji era (late 19th century), missionaries had found that a significant portion of Japanese Catholics had fallen back into ancestor worship and indigenous practices.

It would be easier for the world to survive without the Sun, than to do so without the Holy Mass - St. Padre Pio

Even God Himself could do nothing holier, better or greater than the Mass. - St. Alphonsus

The happiness of the world comes from the Sacrifice of the Mass. - St. Odo of Cluny

I say this simply because you can sing Glorias and even Alleluia, but unless you have the Catholic Faith, whole and entire, you can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Joshua]

You can go to the TLM day and night but if you deny dogma, you have no chance of entering Heaven.

Correct, and no matter how much one intimately knows the faith, it will profit him nothing if he does not offer worship to God. The grace from which one is able to accept and assent to the teachings of the Church is derived principally from the Sacraments. Can we not say that Satan himself possess a far more intimate and perfect knowledge of the divine realities than any man on earth, saintly or not? His damnation and fall from paradise stems from his refusal to render worship to God, not for heterodoxy. Satan is not a heretic. Wrap your head around that one.

A Church which teaches, but does not worship is a false Church. A Church which worships, but does not teach is equally a false Church. The Church needs to teach and worship with equal zeal and refinement. You cannot separate these two fundamental acts of Holy Mother Church.

"Lex orandi, lex credendi" - Note the order.