Why I am a Catholic
#31
(07-28-2011, 05:27 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I don't understand .......

Are you guys saying God wills that some people go to hell?

Calvinists in disguise  :)
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#32
.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#33
.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#34


(07-28-2011, 05:27 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I don't understand .......

Are you guys saying God wills that some people go to hell?

Yes, and it makes sense if you make the distinction (that INPEFESS pointed out) between His desire and His will.  His desire is that all go to Heaven.  His desire is often used synonymously (in discourse) with His will, but this is not so.  God's will is what He actively influences to happen, or passively allows to happen.  He allows (passive will) us to make our own choices and go to Hell, and he actively sends those unworthy to the hot place.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#35
(07-28-2011, 05:59 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(07-28-2011, 05:27 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I don't understand .......

Are you guys saying God wills that some people go to hell?

God's will is what He actively influences to happen, or passively allows to happen.  He allows (passive will) us to make our own choices and go to Hell, and he actively sends those unworthy to the hot place.

Yes, this is a better way to put it than I did. This explains more clear how His will is effected.
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#36
I agree... he has willed me also because there is no way i could still be Catholic after all the years growing up in the 70 and 80's being horribly taught the so called catholic faith at that time and then seeing where im at now... im truly blessed for having my faith! if it was up to my will i would be in handbasket headed somewhere hot
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#37
(07-28-2011, 06:02 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(07-28-2011, 05:59 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(07-28-2011, 05:27 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I don't understand .......

Are you guys saying God wills that some people go to hell?

God's will is what He actively influences to happen, or passively allows to happen.  He allows (passive will) us to make our own choices and go to Hell, and he actively sends those unworthy to the hot place.

Yes, this is a better way to put it than I did. This explains more clear how His will is effected.

Yes, that's good. I have some thoughts on the matter. Stay tuned.
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#38
I understand the difference between God's willing something and God's desiring something. I understand the difference between God's ordained will and permissive will. I understand God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart, the blindness of Israel et al. I understand God's giving grace, sustaining us with grace, and withholding grace, for whatever his reasons. And I understand that if God withdrew his grace from me, I would fall as quickly as if the sun ceased to shine.

And I can understand that it was God's ordained will to knock St. Paul off his horse, temporarily blind him, and fill him with enough grace to make him a great apostle. But would not St. Paul still be free to reject God's grace and walk away?

INPEFESS said “I am Catholic because God wills it.” To me it makes more sense to say “I am Catholic because God desires it and sustains me with his grace.” The other way sounds like I have no free will in the matter.

Everyday in my prayers I thank God for “making” me a Catholic, meaning I thank him for willing or allowing me to be born in a Catholic home with good Catholic parents. This could have been a result of God's permissive will or ordained will. Yes, it could be that he predestined me that way. I feel very blessed and thankful. But I still have the responsibility to respond or cooperate with the measure of grace that God has given me.

I don't ponder too heavily on why others were not blessed or given the same measure of grace. Why does God allow (or will) some to be born in Protestant or Jewish or Muslim homes? Why does God allow (or will) some to be born in dark corners of the world where the name of Jesus is unknown? I have to believe that God loves them – that he desires their salvation too.
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#39
(07-28-2011, 07:12 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: INPEFESS said “I am Catholic because God wills it.” To me it makes more sense to say “I am Catholic because God desires it and sustains me with his grace.” The other way sounds like I have no free will in the matter.

Well, my free will to be Catholic is subordinate to God actually willing that I be Catholic, for if He didn't will it, even my free will wouldn't make me a Catholic.

You'll notice in my post that I followed my statement with:
INP Wrote:In light of such an all-powerful will, every other reason is superfluous.

It is not to say that I don't have any free will in the matter, but that it is superfluous (and so not even worthy mentioning) in light of God's will, because it is only by God's will that I have received the grace to know and love the truth.
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#40

Perhaps I am a Catholic because after my birth in the summer of 1947 I spent my first two weeks in a cradle at St. Joseph's Hospital.  A cradle Catholic friend thinks the sisters probably baptized me.  I hope they did; knowing that my parents were heretics would constitute an emergency, wouldn't it? 

Of course there's much more to my story but basically, I think I was meant to be Catholic, was born into a Protestant family by mistake. 
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