Why I am a Catholic
#28
(07-28-2011, 05:27 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I don't understand .......

Are you guys saying God wills that some people go to hell?

Romans 9:11-23 Wrote:"For when the children were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil (that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand,) not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said to her: The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy; and I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith to Pharao: To this purpose have I raised thee, that I may shew my power in thee, and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will; and whom he will, he hardeneth. Thou wilt say therefore to me: Why doth he then find fault? for who resisteth his will? O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus? Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, that he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory?"
Fr. Haydocks commentary Wrote:Ver. 17. For the Scripture saith to Pharao, &c. St. Paul had shewn that there was no injustice in God by his giving special graces to the elect; now he shews that God cannot be accounted unjust for leaving the reprobate in their sins, or for punishing them as they deserve; for this purpose he brings the example of Pharao, who remained hardened against all the admonitions and chastisements of him and his kingdom. --- Have I raised thee up, placed thee king over Egypt; I have done so many miracles before thee, I have spared thee when thou deservedst to be punished with death, and at last shall punish thee with thy army in the Red Sea, that my name may be known over all the earth. (Witham)

Ver. 18. And whom he will, he hardeneth. That is, permits to be hardened by their own malice, as it is divers times said in Exodus, that Pharao hardened his heart. God, says St. Augustine, is said to harden men's hearts, not by causing their malice, but by not giving them the free gift of his grace, by which they become hardened by their own perverse will. (Witham) --- Not by being the cause, or author of his sin, but by withholding his grace, and so leaving him in his sin, in punishment of his past demerits. (Challoner)

Ver. 19. &c. Thou wilt say, therefore, to me, &c. The apostle makes objection, that if God call some, and harden, or even permit others to be hardened, and no one resisteth, or can hinder his absolute will, why should God complain that men are not converted? St. Paul first puts such rash and profane men in mind, that is unreasonable and impertinent for creatures to murmur and dispute against God their Creator, when they do not comprehend the ways of his providence. --- O man, who art thou that repliest against God? This might stop the mouths, and quiet the minds of every man, when he cannot comprehend the mysteries of predestination, of God's foreknowledge, his decrees and graces, or the manner of reconciling them with human liberty. He may cry out with St. Paul again, (chap. xi. 33.) O the riches of the wisdom, and of the knowledge of God! how incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways! --- Shall the thing formed, &c. Hath not the potter power, &c. To teach men that they ought not to complain against God and his providence, when they cannot comprehend his works, he puts them in mind of their origin. Every one may say to God, with the prophet Isaias, (vi. 48.) Lord, thou art our Father, and we are but clay; thou art our Maker who framed us, and we are all of us the work of thy hands. Hath not the potter power as he pleaseth, out of the same lump of clay to make some vessels for honourable uses, and some for less honourable. St. Chrysostom observes very well, that this comparison must not be extended further than the apostle designed; which was to teach us, how submissive we ought to be to God, in what we do not understand; but we must not pretend from hence, nor from any expression in this chapter, as divers heretics have done, that as vessels of clay are destitute of free will and liberty, so are men. This is against the doctrine of the Catholic Church, and against the Scriptures, in many places. (Witham) --- The potter. This similitude is used, only to shew that we are not to dispute with our Maker: nor to reason with him why he does not give as much grace to one as to another: for since the whole lump of our clay is vitiated by sin, it is owing to his goodness and mercy that he makes out of it so many vessels of honour; and it is no more than just that others, in punishment of their unrepented sins, should be given up to be vessels of dishonour. (Challoner)

Ver. 22-23. And if God, &c. He now gives the reason why God might, without any injustice, have mercy on some, and not on others; grant particular graces and favours to his elect, and not equally to all; because all mankind was become liable to damnation by original sin: the clay that all are made of, is a sinful clay; and as St. Augustine says, was become a lump and mass of damnation. Every one had sinned in Adam. Now, if out of this sinful lump and multitude God, to shew the richness of his glory, and superabundant mercy, hath chosen some as vessels of election, whom he hath decreed to save, and by special graces and favours to make partakers of his heavenly kingdom; and to shew his justice and hatred of sin, hath left others as vessels of his wrath and justice, to be lost in their sins, which for a time he bears patiently with, when they deserved present punishment, who can say that he hath done unjustly? (Witham)
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Messages In This Thread
Why I am a Catholic - by cassini - 07-28-2011, 03:29 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by K3vinhood - 07-28-2011, 03:35 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Vetus Ordo - 07-28-2011, 03:46 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by formerbuddhist - 07-28-2011, 05:02 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Mithrandylan - 07-28-2011, 05:07 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by SCG - 07-28-2011, 05:08 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by obscurus - 07-28-2011, 05:09 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by JacafamalaRedux - 07-28-2011, 05:12 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by JacafamalaRedux - 07-28-2011, 05:14 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by dan hunter - 07-28-2011, 05:17 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by SCG - 07-28-2011, 05:17 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by JacafamalaRedux - 07-28-2011, 05:19 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by INPEFESS - 07-28-2011, 05:20 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Baskerville - 07-28-2011, 05:21 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by SCG - 07-28-2011, 05:23 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Mithrandylan - 07-28-2011, 05:24 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by INPEFESS - 07-28-2011, 05:24 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Vetus Ordo - 07-28-2011, 05:26 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by INPEFESS - 07-28-2011, 05:26 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by SCG - 07-28-2011, 05:27 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Mithrandylan - 07-28-2011, 05:30 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by obscurus - 07-28-2011, 05:39 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by dan hunter - 07-28-2011, 05:42 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Mithrandylan - 07-28-2011, 05:43 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by INPEFESS - 07-28-2011, 05:45 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Mithrandylan - 07-28-2011, 05:47 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by dan hunter - 07-28-2011, 05:50 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Vetus Ordo - 07-28-2011, 05:53 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Mithrandylan - 07-28-2011, 05:54 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by INPEFESS - 07-28-2011, 05:55 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Baskerville - 07-28-2011, 05:55 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Mithrandylan - 07-28-2011, 05:58 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Mithrandylan - 07-28-2011, 05:58 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Mithrandylan - 07-28-2011, 05:59 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by INPEFESS - 07-28-2011, 06:02 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Edward - 07-28-2011, 06:48 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by SCG - 07-28-2011, 07:10 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by SCG - 07-28-2011, 07:12 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by INPEFESS - 07-28-2011, 07:48 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by Revixit - 07-28-2011, 10:56 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by salus - 07-28-2011, 11:01 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by beatus vir - 07-29-2011, 02:20 PM
Re: Why I am a Catholic - by ResiduumRevertetur - 07-29-2011, 02:59 PM



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