The heresy of Americanism!
#61
The state is not an effective deterrent against error. Error is wrong ideas. The state can't control ideas, no matter how hard it tries. It is right-thinking and courageous men who are the best deterrent against error.
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#62
(08-09-2012, 06:14 PM)rbjmartin Wrote: The state is not an effective deterrent against error. Error is wrong ideas. The state can't control ideas, no matter how hard it tries. It is right-thinking and courageous men who are the best deterrent against error.

???

They can and have before during the time of Christendom.
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#63
Quote: They can and have before during the time of Christendom.

And they also failed in a dramatic fashion.

England fell to heresy.
France destroyed its economy through usury.  Then failed to suppress revolutionaries who took advantage of the situation.  Of course European Christendom was waning by that time.  Not so for England.

The USA fell after the Progressive onslaught.  And I've said time and again that the lack of a Catholic government was a fatal flaw.  Though the Catholic Church fell down on the job.  It could have defeated abortion if it had tried.  And it did a lot to spread marxism.  Mostly after Vat. II however.  And I guess it is fair to mention the work of Bella Dodd before she converted.
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#64
I actually read the article posted in the OP.  This part is erroneous:
Quote: Americanism it is not a condemnation of America as such but a condemnation of the false notions as introduced into the faith by means of the American prelates.
  The reason the Pope acted is because Catholics in EUROPE were claiming that since the Church was thriving in America, there was no need to maintain a Catholic Confessional State or work to restore one in France.  I believe what touched off the crisis was a book published in France.  Actually it was the introduction that was inserted by the French. 
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#65
(08-09-2012, 06:19 PM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote:
(08-09-2012, 06:14 PM)rbjmartin Wrote: The state is not an effective deterrent against error. Error is wrong ideas. The state can't control ideas, no matter how hard it tries. It is right-thinking and courageous men who are the best deterrent against error.

???

They can and have before during the time of Christendom.
How well did that work? ???
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#66
(08-09-2012, 09:14 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: They can and have before during the time of Christendom.

And they also failed in a dramatic fashion.

England fell to heresy.
France destroyed its economy through usury.  Then failed to suppress revolutionaries who took advantage of the situation.  Of course European Christendom was waning by that time.  Not so for England.

The USA fell after the Progressive onslaught.  And I've said time and again that the lack of a Catholic government was a fatal flaw.  Though the Catholic Church fell down on the job.  It could have defeated abortion if it had tried.  And it did a lot to spread marxism.  Mostly after Vat. II however.  And I guess it is fair to mention the work of Bella Dodd before she converted.

EXACTLY, England failed NOT because of Christendom, but because it DEFIED Christendom.  Christendom didn't collapse under it's own weight, it collapsed because of people's rejection of it.

The United States of America was never a part of Christendom... ???
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#67
(08-10-2012, 01:10 AM)WesternWarrior Wrote:
(08-09-2012, 06:19 PM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote:
(08-09-2012, 06:14 PM)rbjmartin Wrote: The state is not an effective deterrent against error. Error is wrong ideas. The state can't control ideas, no matter how hard it tries. It is right-thinking and courageous men who are the best deterrent against error.

???

They can and have before during the time of Christendom.
How well did that work? ???

Very.  Until they denounced it.  Spain was well cleared of non-Catholics posing as Catholics.  It wasn't until Napoleon's invasion that the liberals took over.  They were there, but not in control before ol' Nappy came through.

Christendom worked.  It fell from the rejection of it, it didn't fall under it's own weight.

OUR society however...
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#68
LoneWolf,
I still don't see historical evidence proving that the state was the effective deterrent against error. You are attributing to the state a power which rests in the Church and holy men working within it. Saints have been the greatest foes of error, not states. Even when there was formal action against heretics, it always manifested itself in actions of the Church (via inquisitions), and the state only piggybacked.

I re-state my original assertion that the state is not an effective deterrent against error. Christendom was not about states. Christendom was about unity through the true faith, not about state power.
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#69
Agreed.  And when the Church got lax and corrupt, Christendom fell to the Protestant revolt.  Some of the items Luther complained about were true.
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#70
Frankly, these ideas are informed from archaelogy. There is a strong movement to turn back the clock and find the ruins of France and install another Sun King. It was a failure then and it'll be a failure now. It is a romance for some, and other's see the folly in it. All of this appears to come from the dubious book written by Yves DuPont, a proponent of Franco superiority. What we need is a new less federalized government, more locally controlled, with an over the top light touch governance which is guided by the writings S. Roberto Bellarmine and Fr. Suarez both of which are considered the fathers of international law.

tim
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