The heresy of Americanism!
#71
(08-13-2012, 01:35 PM)Tim Wrote: Frankly, these ideas are informed from archaelogy. There is a strong movement to turn back the clock and find the ruins of France and install another Sun King. It was a failure then and it'll be a failure now. It is a romance for some, and other's see the folly in it. All of this appears to come from the dubious book written by Yves DuPont, a proponent of Franco superiority. What we need is a new less federalized government, more locally controlled, with an over the top light touch governance which is guided by the writings S. Roberto Bellarmine and Fr. Suarez both of which are considered the fathers of international law.

tim
Well said Tim.
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#72
Without necessarily endorsing what is being said, I think this statement from the American architect Ralph Adams Cram is interesting:
Quote:And so we stand to-day where the Great War has revealed us, peoples without leaders; helpless, inefficient and, barring the miracle of redemption through bitter chastizement, hurrying on to anarchy or slavery as the fortunes of war may determine.The true democracy of St. Louis, Edward I and Washington is forgotten and a false democracy has taken its place, ertiploying the old shibboleths but ignoring the thing itself, while inventing one new device after another to serve as a red herring drawn across the trail pursued implacably by the ever-increasing numbers of those who see the inefficiency and deceitfulness of it all, and maintain their pursuit so that in the end they may establish what is to them democracy pure and simple, but is in fact its reductio ad absurdum.
http://www.archive.org/stream/nemesismed...g_djvu.txt
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#73
It would seem incumbent upon those who claim that the Constitution is intrinsically unacceptable to prove it.  The biggest hole in this theory, as far as I can see, is that no Pope ever endorsed it.  If the Constitution of the USA was and is in no way acceptable, why didn't Pope Leo XIII say so?

In so far as the First Amendment may be insufficient, why theoretically can it not be amended?

Many people I think shout "Americanism" because they enjoy trying to run others down for having a basic patriotic love of their homeland.
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#74
(08-13-2012, 11:09 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: It would seem incumbent upon those who claim that the Constitution is intrinsically unacceptable to prove it.  The biggest hole in this theory, as far as I can see, is that no Pope ever endorsed it.  If the Constitution of the USA was and is in no way acceptable, why didn't Pope Leo XIII say so?

In so far as the First Amendment may be insufficient, why theoretically can it not be amended?

Many people I think shout "Americanism" because they enjoy trying to run others down for having a basic patriotic love of their homeland.

Nope.  Patriotism is a Christian virtue.  A good thing.  Because patriotism is love for your people and your land... but no where does it say you have to love your government or your government's ideology.

So, one can cry AMERICANIST! and still be a patriot.
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#75
(08-14-2012, 11:44 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: Nope.  Patriotism is a Christian virtue.  A good thing.  Because patriotism is love for your people and your land... but no where does it say you have to love your government or your government's ideology.

Good point. And as I have discussed before, it is doubtful whether one can have authentic patriotism (at least in the ancient sense of the word) about a nation as large as the United States. Logistically, it's just impossible to feel an intimate connection with a land so large and a people so diverse. For instance, there are parts of this country I have never visited, yet I have visited Tuscany several times, so I feel a strong affinity for Tuscan culture that I might not feel for certain parts of the USA. This is why it's so important that we adopt subsidiarity to a greater degree in this country. True patriotism can exist on the local level and even up to the state level. But I believe the patriotism that is preached on the national level is too often a medium of mass manipulation.
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#76
(08-13-2012, 11:09 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: Many people I think shout "Americanism" because they enjoy trying to run others down for having a basic patriotic love of their homeland.

And i think this is a stick used to beat patriotic Americans who happen to disagree with the basis on which the country was founded.
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#77
(08-14-2012, 11:44 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote:
(08-13-2012, 11:09 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: It would seem incumbent upon those who claim that the Constitution is intrinsically unacceptable to prove it.  The biggest hole in this theory, as far as I can see, is that no Pope ever endorsed it.  If the Constitution of the USA was and is in no way acceptable, why didn't Pope Leo XIII say so?

In so far as the First Amendment may be insufficient, why theoretically can it not be amended?

Many people I think shout "Americanism" because they enjoy trying to run others down for having a basic patriotic love of their homeland.

Nope.  Patriotism is a Christian virtue.  A good thing.  Because patriotism is love for your people and your land... but no where does it say you have to love your government or your government's ideology.

So, one can cry AMERICANIST! and still be a patriot.

Do you have the quote from Leo XIII or any other Pope which says the American Constitution is an unacceptable document?

I do not even have strong feelings about the Constitution.  I think it is overrated by most on the American Right.  However, the Traddie Royalists and anti-Americanists usually over-reach by making claims far beyond anything in the ordinary Magisterium of the Church.

Thought experiment: Suppose there was an amendment added to the Constitution which said: "America is a Christian nation which recognizes the Kingship of Jesus Christ over American society.  Therefore, Christianity will be officially protected by prudent legislation of Congress and no legislation may be passed restricting the free exercise of Christianity in the public forum."

We can only dream, but such a thing was not out of the question in early times.  Unfortunately, we have come to our present condition and it will be hard to improve it... only by the grace of God.
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#78
(08-14-2012, 12:30 PM)rbjmartin Wrote:
(08-14-2012, 11:44 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: Nope.  Patriotism is a Christian virtue.  A good thing.  Because patriotism is love for your people and your land... but no where does it say you have to love your government or your government's ideology.

Good point. And as I have discussed before, it is doubtful whether one can have authentic patriotism (at least in the ancient sense of the word) about a nation as large as the United States. Logistically, it's just impossible to feel an intimate connection with a land so large and a people so diverse. For instance, there are parts of this country I have never visited, yet I have visited Tuscany several times, so I feel a strong affinity for Tuscan culture that I might not feel for certain parts of the USA. This is why it's so important that we adopt subsidiarity to a greater degree in this country. True patriotism can exist on the local level and even up to the state level. But I believe the patriotism that is preached on the national level is too often a medium of mass manipulation.

Yes and no.  To some extent, I think America's diversity is over-rated.  We really do have more in common than what separates us.  Although I admit to never having been to the West Coast, so maybe it is different there, but I find that while the East, the South, and the Midwest have many differences, they do not seem especially dramatic. 
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#79
(08-14-2012, 12:30 PM)rbjmartin Wrote:
(08-14-2012, 11:44 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: Nope.  Patriotism is a Christian virtue.  A good thing.  Because patriotism is love for your people and your land... but no where does it say you have to love your government or your government's ideology.

Good point. And as I have discussed before, it is doubtful whether one can have authentic patriotism (at least in the ancient sense of the word) about a nation as large as the United States. Logistically, it's just impossible to feel an intimate connection with a land so large and a people so diverse. For instance, there are parts of this country I have never visited, yet I have visited Tuscany several times, so I feel a strong affinity for Tuscan culture that I might not feel for certain parts of the USA. This is why it's so important that we adopt subsidiarity to a greater degree in this country. True patriotism can exist on the local level and even up to the state level. But I believe the patriotism that is preached on the national level is too often a medium of mass manipulation.
True.
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#80
To reorient the discussion a little bit: to what extent does the virtue of piety require one to treat with reverence the constitutional tradition of his nation? Presumably, if piety is to mean anything at all, it must include respect and love for the customs and traditions of one's fatherland, including its political and legal traditions. If this is the case, it would seem to me that one must always be cautious when critiquing or attempting to improve the constitution of the political community to which one belongs. In the United States, for example, one would, in my opinion, certainly be right to criticize the revolutionary and Whiggish elements of the country's political tradition, but it would be impious to suggest that these should be replaced by a wholly foreign constitution. Or, to let Burke explain it:
Quote:we have consecrated the state; that no man should approach to look into its defects or corruptions but with due caution; that he should never dream of beginning its reformation by its subversion; that he should approach to the faults of the state as to the wounds of a father, with pious awe and trembling solicitude. By this wise prejudice we are taught to look with horror on those children of their country who are prompt rashly to hack that aged parent in pieces, and put him into the kettle of magicians, in hopes that by their poisonous weeds, and wild incantations, they may regenerate the paternal constitution, and renovate their father's life.
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