The heresy of Americanism!
#81
"Precisely at the epoch when the American colonies, having, with Catholic aid, achieved liberty and independence, coalesced into a constitutional Republic the ecclesiastical hierarchy was happily established amongst you; and at the very time when the popular suffrage placed the great Washington at the helm of the Republic, the first bishop was set by apostolic authority over the American Church.  The well-known friendship and familiar intercourse which subsisted between these two men seems to be an evidence that the United States ought to be conjoined in concord and amity with the Catholic Church.  And not without cause; for without morality the State cannot endure-a truth which that illustrious citizen of yours, whom We have just mentioned, with a keenness of insight worthy of his genius and statesmanship perceived and proclaimed.  But the best and strongest support of morality is religion. She, by her very nature, guards and defends all the principles on which duties are founded, and setting before us the motives most powerful to influence us, commands us to live virtuously and forbids us to transgress. ...  But, moreover (a fact which it gives pleasure to acknowledge), thanks are due to the equity of the laws which obtain in America and to the customs of the well-ordered Republic.  For the Church amongst you, unopposed by the Constitution and government of your nation, fettered by no hostile legislation, protected against violence by the common laws and the impartiality of the tribunals, is free to live and act without hindrance.  Yet, though all this is true, it would be very erroneous to draw the conclusion that in America is to be sought the type of the most desirable status of the Church, or that it would be universally lawful or expedient for State and Church to be, as in America, dissevered and divorced.  The fact that Catholicity with you is in good condition, nay, is even enjoying a prosperous growth, is by all means to be attributed to the fecundity with which God has endowed His Church, in virtue of which unless men or circumstances interfere, she spontaneously expands and propagates herself; but she would bring forth more abundant fruits if, in addition to liberty, she enjoyed the favor of the laws and the patronage of the public authority" (Pope Leo XIII, Longinqua, nn. 4, 6: 6 January 1895).

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xi...ua_en.html
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#82
Pope Leo XIII Wrote:Yet, though all this is true, it would be very erroneous to draw the conclusion that in America is to be sought the type of the most desirable status of the Church, or that it would be universally lawful or expedient for State and Church to be, as in America, dissevered and divorced.

Loud and proud. I'm glad I have this backing me up.
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#83
I wish people on this forum were a little more interested in having a discussion and a little less interested in throwing irrelevant proof texts back and forth, though certain posters seem to do little else.

In any case, the position I set forth above comes from St. Thomas, and I see no reason to think that attempting to address the issue from his standpoint, even though this requires a little more guess work in particular cases, is a bad idea, despite the pointless quotations certain posters might spew forth in an attempt to create some hideous simulacrum of thought.
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#84
(08-15-2012, 12:48 AM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: I wish people on this forum were a little more interested in having a discussion and a little less interested in throwing irrelevant proof texts back and forth, though certain posters seem to do little else.

In any case, the position I set forth above comes from St. Thomas, and I see no reason to think that attempting to address the issue from his standpoint, even though this requires a little more guess work in particular cases, is a bad idea, despite the pointless quotations certain posters might spew forth in an attempt to create some hideous simulacrum of thought.
Quite so.
there is no common denominator in the US to define its people.
You can't pinpoint a common goal/religion.
There is no "American way" or "American culture".
It is a PC culture. Even presidents tiptoe in their speeches in order not to offend any one group of people.
The US is a melting pot of cultures and peoples. But produces no real identity. In fact, the immigrants after a while (many, not all) tend to lose their identity, culture, traditions and swap it for nothingness. The assimilation is null. There is none.  Instead they devolve into a selfish, media oriented, PC, fashion frenzied, technology oriented people. I' still haven't touched upon the moral, territorial extension and religious factors.





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#85
(08-15-2012, 01:04 AM)GottmitunsAlex Wrote: Instead they devolve into a selfish, media oriented, PC, fashion frenzied, technology oriented people. I' still haven't touched upon the moral, territorial extension and religious factors.

The best example of this were the good, ol' 1950s.
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#86
Crusading Philologist,
Have you read Christus Imperat's posts (nn. 72, 76)?

"If the Constitution of the USA was and is in no way acceptable, why didn't Pope Leo XIII say so?

"Do you have the quote from Leo XIII or any other Pope which says the American Constitution is an unacceptable document?"

I provided a quote where Pope Leo pointed out that the United States should have an official relationship with the Catholic Church and that the current situation was not ideal.  Here the Supreme Pontiff implicitly speaks of the federal government's error in being indifferent towards the true religion.
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#87
(08-15-2012, 01:07 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Crusading Philologist,
Have you read Christus Imperat's posts (nn. 72, 76)?

"If the Constitution of the USA was and is in no way acceptable, why didn't Pope Leo XIII say so?

"Do you have the quote from Leo XIII or any other Pope which says the American Constitution is an unacceptable document?"

I provided a quote where Pope Leo pointed out that the United States should have an official relationship with the Catholic Church and that the current situation was not ideal.  Here the Supreme Pontiff implicitly speaks of the federal government's error in being indifferent towards the true religion.

Ah, I thought your post was meant to be a reply to mine, but I could not see how it was relevant, so I became a bit frustrated. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
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#88
Crusading Philologist,
No problem!

With regard to your statement on the relationship between the virtue of piety and the reverence which should be had -- if any -- towards the laws of one's nation, certainly, we should praise those which are good, but I also think we're free to criticize those which are unsatisfactory or are even evil.  I think that, by God's will, if and when the United States becomes a Catholic nation, the Constitution should be amended (corrected, in fact) to promote, protect and defend the Catholic religion.  Indeed, the State has a moral obligation to offer public worship to God, and the United States has been sorely lacking in this regard for nearly two and a half centuries.

Very quickly, I would also note that I think our "freedom of the press" needs to be modified in so far as so much defamation and rumor-spreading is allowed to be published, not to mention the many gravely sinful (i.e. promoting immorality) books being widely promoted by the media.  I will have more to say on this matter tomorrow.
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#89
(08-15-2012, 01:30 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Crusading Philologist,
No problem!

With regard to your statement on the relationship between the virtue of piety and the reverence which should be had -- if any -- towards the laws of one's nation, certainly, we should praise those which are good, but I also think we're free to criticize those which are unsatisfactory or are even evil.  I think that, by God's will, if and when the United States becomes a Catholic nation, the Constitution should be amended (corrected, in fact) to promote, protect and defend the Catholic religion.  Indeed, the State has a moral obligation to offer public worship to God, and the United States has been sorely lacking in this regard for nearly two and a half centuries.

Very quickly, I would also note that I think our "freedom of the press" needs to be modified in so far as so much defamation and rumor-spreading is allowed to be published, not to mention the many gravely sinful (i.e. promoting immorality) books being widely promoted by the media.  I will have more to say on this matter tomorrow.

I don't disagree with either of your points. I think we can distinguish between the structural organization of a state, its "constitution" in a more literal sense, and particular laws. So, for  instance, establishing Catholicism as the state religion is a good thing, but this should be done in a way that is in continuity with the constitutional tradition of a particular state. I think what I would object to, then, is more the idea that one should impose an alien method of political organization from the outside in the name of the Social Kingship of Christ instead of attempting  to establish this in a way that leaves the preexisting constitution intact as far as possible.
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#90
(08-15-2012, 01:45 AM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: I don't disagree with either of your points. I think we can distinguish between the structural organization of a state, its "constitution" in a more literal sense, and particular laws. So, for  instance, establishing Catholicism as the state religion is a good thing, but this should be done in a way that is in continuity with the constitutional tradition of a particular state. I think what I would object to, then, is more the idea that one should impose an alien method of political organization from the outside in the name of the Social Kingship of Christ instead of attempting  to establish this in a way that leaves the preexisting constitution intact as far as possible.

Would you consider a constitutional amendment as something done in continuity?

I think I posted a video wherein such a thing was mocked.
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