The heresy of Americanism!
#58
(08-09-2012, 01:23 PM)Walty Wrote: Oh, I've heard this argument before.

At any rate, I don't think I'm turning it into a super-dogma as much as I'm just not ignoring it.  I wonder how, if you reject the universal truth and application of these condemnations, you accept it at all.  And yet I'm the one who isn't approaching the authority of the documents correctly?

I'm not arguing that it needs to be ignored, just received at the level it should traditionally be and not misapplied (I would say the same thing to someone who tried to do the same with the CCC). I'm simply arguing here that the US Constitution isn't necessarily condemned by the propositions you cited.

Each proposition has different weight--the Syllabus is like a summary or index pointing you to the place where the error is dealt with.  It is not like condemned lists of errors like Exsurge Domine, Coelestis Pastor, Unigenitus, etc., etc..  Early drafts were actually like those documents, complete with theological notes attached to each proposition (the list of propositions was originally different as well), but the Pope replaced that drafting commission with another that produced the final text, replacing the theological notes with references to the original texts.  The Pope could have appears to have specifically chosen to merely re-present what he had said in past allocutions, etc. without any of the language traditionally used to denote definitive condemnations (although some of the individual sources do use such langauge; these should of course be treated as univerally definitive).

The source is especially key with the Syllabus because we are dealing with condemnations, many of which refer to erroneous books, etc. Traditionally, if the condemnation refers to a particular quote, it is only condemned in the sense of the original.  Furthermore, the traditional way of interpreting condemnations is that the Church believes a contradictory, not the contrary. When a universal and sweeping statement is condemned, it only implies the Church believes in at least one exeption to the universal statement, not that it believes the contrary universal statement.  Both of these rules are key, for example, when reconciling the anti-Pelagian condemnations of Innocent I, Zosimus, and Boniface II, with condemnations of 16th-18th century works of the Jansenists and others concerning various errors relating to grace and free will.

So, back to the issues at hand: the US Constitution.  The ideal is always that everyone should be Catholic and live in a political sitution where Church and State form essentially one society (ie where all subjects and rulers are also subjects of the Church and live and govern according to true justice, etc. and Church and state work closely together and support each other in mutual concord).  At the time the referenced allocutions were issued, such a situation (or at least as close as probably possible in our fallen world) was present in Spain and elsewhere.  And yet, there were those who argued that it was best for such situations to be done away with (St. Anthony Mary Claret's autobiography provides some first-hand insight on what was going on in Spain at the time).  That is what was being condemned.  The contrary, that no separation is ever legitimate, is not being asserted.  If a fellow Catholic tried to assert such a universal, I would not ignore the Syllabus, but defintely reference it in my attempted refutation, but I would not use it where it did not apply.

The US was and is a completely different situation--very diverse and with a minority Catholic population.

The CE notes the following:

Quote:If the modern claim of general separation between Church and State is rejected, as in thesis 55, it does not follow that separation is not permissible in any case. If it be false to say that matrimony by its very nature is subject to the civil power (thesis 74), it is not necessarily correct to assert that it is in no way subject to the State. While thesis 77 condemns the statement that in our time it is no longer expedient to consider the Catholic religion as the only State religion to the exclusion of all other cults, it follows merely that today also the exclusion of non-Catholic cults may prove expedient, if certain conditions be realized. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14368b.htm
("separation" here is not meant to imply the government can legislate contrary to the natural law).

If those conditions are present anywhere, it's the US. 

At the time the Syllabus came out, there were some who were reading it as you do, both outside and inside the Church, especially in France.  Felix Dupanloup, Bishop of Orleans, intervened making the same argument I am trying to make (which was also made by Newman, Von Kettler, and others--none of these men were censured for it--quite the opposite--they received praise and honors from the Popes). Dupanloup's objectors made the same claim you are, that he was essentially neutering the Syllabus or even going contrary to it; on the other hand, Dupanloup received a letter of commendation from Bl. Pius IX for his interevention.  His intervention can be found here, albeit interspersed with the blog owners commentary. 
http://opuscula.blogspot.com/2009/08/int...art-i.html







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Messages In This Thread
The heresy of Americanism! - by LoneWolfRadTrad - 07-28-2011, 11:31 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Servire Deo - 07-29-2011, 02:37 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Joshua - 07-29-2011, 03:09 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Joshua - 07-29-2011, 03:22 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Baskerville - 07-29-2011, 03:38 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Servire Deo - 07-29-2011, 12:11 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Servire Deo - 07-29-2011, 12:27 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Servire Deo - 07-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Servire Deo - 07-29-2011, 12:49 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by SCG - 07-29-2011, 12:51 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by jovan66102 - 07-29-2011, 08:36 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by James02 - 08-06-2012, 06:36 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Walty - 08-06-2012, 11:54 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by rbjmartin - 08-06-2012, 12:54 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Tim - 08-06-2012, 01:12 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Tim - 08-06-2012, 05:01 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Resurrexi - 08-06-2012, 06:22 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Walty - 08-06-2012, 10:59 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by vtcatholic - 08-09-2012, 12:31 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by James02 - 08-09-2012, 12:42 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Resurrexi - 08-09-2012, 03:16 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by jovan66102 - 08-09-2012, 03:51 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Resurrexi - 08-09-2012, 03:58 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Walty - 08-09-2012, 04:10 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by jake-the-rake - 08-09-2012, 05:44 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by James02 - 08-09-2012, 06:56 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by James02 - 08-09-2012, 07:09 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by jake-the-rake - 08-09-2012, 09:30 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Tim - 08-09-2012, 10:00 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Walty - 08-09-2012, 01:23 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by SaintSebastian - 08-09-2012, 03:48 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by rbjmartin - 08-09-2012, 06:14 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by James02 - 08-09-2012, 09:14 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by James02 - 08-09-2012, 09:27 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by rbjmartin - 08-13-2012, 11:08 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by James02 - 08-13-2012, 01:10 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Tim - 08-13-2012, 01:35 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by rbjmartin - 08-14-2012, 12:30 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by jovan66102 - 08-14-2012, 04:42 PM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by SouthpawLink - 08-15-2012, 12:27 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by SouthpawLink - 08-15-2012, 01:07 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by SouthpawLink - 08-15-2012, 01:30 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Resurrexi - 08-15-2012, 02:45 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by jake-the-rake - 08-15-2012, 03:22 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by jake-the-rake - 08-15-2012, 04:07 AM
Re: The heresy of Americanism! - by Resurrexi - 08-15-2012, 04:32 AM



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