Mistakes in sacramental forms - valid?
#41
(08-14-2011, 12:23 PM)NOtard Wrote: So then this raises the question: if you can't actually hear what the priest says during the consecration, by the argument above you don't know whether the consecration was valid or not. Presumably, just as with the issue of not knowing what the priest was actually thinking about as he said the words of consecration, you just have to assume that (unless you have actual evidence to the contrary) he had the right intentionand said the right words. But it seems like you can never be sure. So it would mean that, at EVERY Mass, you have to assume that it MIGHT be valid or it might not, and act accordingly.

Somehow this doesn't seem right. Or does it seem right to the rest of you here?

(12-01-2010, 05:04 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
St. Catherine of Siena’s dictation of God’s words to her Wrote:Blind as they are, this last error and sin is greater than the first because they are making idolaters of the people by letting them adore this host that is not consecrated as the body and blood of Christ my only-begotten Son, wholly God and wholly man. For this is what it is when it is consecrated. But now it is nothing but bread.

Now you see how great an abomination this is and how great my patience that I should put up with them. But unless they change their ways every grace will turn into judgment for them.

But what should the people do to avoid such a predicament? They should add a qualification to their prayer: “If this celebrant has said what he ought to say, I truly believe that you are the Christ, Son of the true and living God, given me as food by the fire of your immeasurable charity and in memory of your most tender passion and the great blessing of your blood poured out with such burning love to wash away our sinfulness.” If they do this, the celebrant’s blindness will not lead them into the darkness of adoring what is really something else, and although the wretched celebrant is guilty of sin, the guilt will be his alone.
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#42
(08-14-2011, 12:23 PM)NOtard Wrote: So then this raises the question: if you can't actually hear what the priest says during the consecration, by the argument above you don't know whether the consecration was valid or not. Presumably, just as with the issue of not knowing what the priest was actually thinking about as he said the words of consecration, you just have to assume that (unless you have actual evidence to the contrary) he had the right intentionand said the right words. But it seems like you can never be sure. So it would mean that, at EVERY Mass, you have to assume that it MIGHT be valid or it might not, and act accordingly.

Somehow this doesn't seem right. Or does it seem right to the rest of you here?

It doesn't matter if every individual present in the nave hears the words of institution, the consecration formula.  The acolyte listens to the priest say the consecration formula.  If the acolyte rings the bells, what good reason is there to doubt that the form was valid?

In absense of good reason to doubt, and good reason is ONLY fact (fact is only that material which comes from certain observation either first hand or second hand, etc. from credible and moral witnesses), one cannot doubt.  One cannot doubt on something that MAY BE possible, but is not certain as fact.  The fact that the bells are rung during the major elevation is, to my understanding, an attestation by the acolyte that the form of the consecration was valid.  What other fact would be present to give one good reason to doubt?
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#43
(08-14-2011, 04:54 PM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(12-01-2010, 05:04 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
St. Catherine of Siena’s dictation of God’s words to her Wrote:Blind as they are, this last error and sin is greater than the first because they are making idolaters of the people by letting them adore this host that is not consecrated as the body and blood of Christ my only-begotten Son, wholly God and wholly man. For this is what it is when it is consecrated. But now it is nothing but bread.

Now you see how great an abomination this is and how great my patience that I should put up with them. But unless they change their ways every grace will turn into judgment for them.

But what should the people do to avoid such a predicament? They should add a qualification to their prayer: “If this celebrant has said what he ought to say, I truly believe that you are the Christ, Son of the true and living God, given me as food by the fire of your immeasurable charity and in memory of your most tender passion and the great blessing of your blood poured out with such burning love to wash away our sinfulness.” If they do this, the celebrant’s blindness will not lead them into the darkness of adoring what is really something else, and although the wretched celebrant is guilty of sin, the guilt will be his alone.

This sounds like a great devotional solution.
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