Astrology
#11
(07-31-2011, 09:58 PM)Hawaii Five-0 Wrote:
(07-31-2011, 08:20 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(07-31-2011, 07:59 PM)Hawaii Five-0 Wrote:
(07-31-2011, 07:49 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(07-31-2011, 07:20 PM)Servire Deo Wrote:
(07-31-2011, 03:15 AM)wulfrano Wrote: I read somewhere that several Popes towards the Rennaissance had astrologers in the Vatican and freely consulted them for just any important decision  they had to take.

Just like Ronald Reagan!  ::)

On the one hand the Church condemns Astrology and on the other hand some of its Popes have seriously studied Astrology and consulted astrologers and drawn up horscopes and believed in Astrology.  Will somebody please explain to me this "contradiction"?

What's there to explain?  Some popes where immoral, some where reprobates, some where ignorant.  If a pope truly believed that the stars determined his future he was a superstitious man who hopefully repented of this sin before he was called to his judgement. 


St. Albert Magnus and St. Thomas Aquinas are in Heaven right this moment and they said some nice things about astrology.... 

This link might clear up St. Thomas' teaching on "astrology" for you.    http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/05/d...ology.html

Thank you Hawaii, for the input on St. Thomas.  Now... what about St. Albert Magnus?  Resurrexi, on Astrology, says: St. Albertus Mangus viewed it as morally acceptable and useful.  How about this?
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#12
There are different and opposing beliefs under the umbrella term Astrology. This article - The Astrology of Marsilio Ficino - contains a good critical discussion of traditional astrology and superstitions.

Quote:   Ficino included much of his Disputatio in his Commentaries on Plotinus' Enneads, and it is easy to see why, for Plotinus' analysis of astrological effect is a clear refutation of causal thinking. Here, Ficino found confirmation of astrology as divination. In divining from the heavens, says Plotinus, people can know the nature of the All, because the stars are signs: 'We may think of the stars as letters perpetually being inscribed on the heavens or inscribed once and for all' he says, and 'those who know how to read this sort of writing …can read the future from their patterns, discovering what is signified by the systematic use of analogy.' [34] And 'All teems with symbol: the wise man is the man who in any one thing can read another.' [35] What we see conveys the unseen; and this is the mystery at the heart of Platonism. For Plotinus the wise man is the self-directed man, who, aligned with the higher part of his soul, has developed 'another way of seeing, that all have but few use'.[36] The Plotinian cosmos is a ballet, all parts interdependent, the hierarchies of being corresponding and mirroring each other in a cosmic energy-field of anima mundi. It is the Soul, as the intermediary between intellect and body, which connects all things, sowing itself as 'bait' in material forms which will naturally attract, by affinity, the soul of the human being. As it emanates from the supreme One, soul disposes the configurations of the stars, so that life experiences are announced, not caused, by their patterns - but whilst Providence rules the entire process for the Good, those who are identified with their lower, material soul will not experience its law as a liberation. Rather, they will remain fate-bound.

It’s a difficult worldview for us to grasp, full of subtle distinctions and exotic ideas like the anima mundi and the great chain of being. While I haven’t read St. Albert Magnus on the topic, I'd guess that on the spectrum he probably falls closer to Plotinus than to Carnac the Magnificent.


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#13
1. There are aspects of astrology that suggest that we don't have free will, our fate is sealed and can be read in the stars, we should consult oracles, and so on.  This is forbidden.

2. However the idea that the stars influence our lives, is not so different from the idea that our genomes influence our lives.  They are both scientific hypotheses, one no longer favored, the second currently very popular, and Catholics can hold or reject them as they wish.

If it is true that the alignment of planents and stars influences my personality and the events of my life, there's nothing wrong with me wanting to learn about it, as long as I don't go the route of #1 above.
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#14
There is a lot about it at http://www.catholic.com/library/Astrology.asp (including quotes)
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#15
(08-01-2011, 03:04 PM)ecclesiastes Wrote: There is a lot about it at http://www.catholic.com/library/Astrology.asp (including quotes)

Astrology today is quite different than it was in the Medieval period.  Back then, astronomy and astrology were a combined science (not a religion).  In the medieval way of thinking, you couldn't study the stars and planets without studying the ways and forces they held over human beings. 

Today, astrology is now separated from the science of astronomy.   Modern day neo-pagans have embraced and assimilated astrology into their religion - which means, of course, that Catholics are forbidden to indulge in this.  During the early Church, as it is today with neo-pagans, astrology was a part of the Roman religion and was thus forbidden.  But during the Medieval period, astrology and astronomy were considered a combined science, not a religion.
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#16
Another article on the history of  :star: :star: :star: astrology  :star: :star: :star:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02018e.htm
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#17
(08-01-2011, 02:22 PM)Graham Wrote: There are different and opposing beliefs under the umbrella term Astrology. This article - The Astrology of Marsilio Ficino - contains a good critical discussion of traditional astrology and superstitions.

Quote:   Ficino included much of his Disputatio in his Commentaries on Plotinus' Enneads, and it is easy to see why, for Plotinus' analysis of astrological effect is a clear refutation of causal thinking. Here, Ficino found confirmation of astrology as divination. In divining from the heavens, says Plotinus, people can know the nature of the All, because the stars are signs: 'We may think of the stars as letters perpetually being inscribed on the heavens or inscribed once and for all' he says, and 'those who know how to read this sort of writing …can read the future from their patterns, discovering what is signified by the systematic use of analogy.' [34] And 'All teems with symbol: the wise man is the man who in any one thing can read another.' [35] What we see conveys the unseen; and this is the mystery at the heart of Platonism. For Plotinus the wise man is the self-directed man, who, aligned with the higher part of his soul, has developed 'another way of seeing, that all have but few use'.[36] The Plotinian cosmos is a ballet, all parts interdependent, the hierarchies of being corresponding and mirroring each other in a cosmic energy-field of anima mundi. It is the Soul, as the intermediary between intellect and body, which connects all things, sowing itself as 'bait' in material forms which will naturally attract, by affinity, the soul of the human being. As it emanates from the supreme One, soul disposes the configurations of the stars, so that life experiences are announced, not caused, by their patterns - but whilst Providence rules the entire process for the Good, those who are identified with their lower, material soul will not experience its law as a liberation. Rather, they will remain fate-bound.

It’s a difficult worldview for us to grasp, full of subtle distinctions and exotic ideas like the anima mundi and the great chain of being. While I haven’t read St. Albert Magnus on the topic, I'd guess that on the spectrum he probably falls closer to Plotinus than to Carnac the Magnificent.

Thank you, Graham, for the input.  But I still don't see how it is possible to accept what some writers say that St. Albert and St. Thomas accepted some form of astrology and that Popes during the Renaissance would have at their bedside astrology books and consult with astrologers, in spite of the official condemnation of Astrology by the Church.  Can you pull me out of this conundrum.  Thank you kindly.
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#18
(08-01-2011, 02:32 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: 1. There are aspects of astrology that suggest that we don't have free will, our fate is sealed and can be read in the stars, we should consult oracles, and so on.  This is forbidden.

2. However the idea that the stars influence our lives, is not so different from the idea that our genomes influence our lives.  They are both scientific hypotheses, one no longer favored, the second currently very popular, and Catholics can hold or reject them as they wish.

If it is true that the alignment of planents and stars influences my personality and the events of my life, there's nothing wrong with me wanting to learn about it, as long as I don't go the route of #1 above.

Thank you, Newyorkcatholic.  You make a lot of sense.  I appreciate your clarity and I hope you are right from the point of view of the Church.  I don't want trouble on Judgment Day because of this topic.
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#19
(08-01-2011, 03:04 PM)ecclesiastes Wrote: There is a lot about it at http://www.catholic.com/library/Astrology.asp (including quotes)

Thank you, Ecclesiastes, for your wonderful reference which quoted what great catholic thinkers had to say on the matter of Astrology as knowledge deeply intertwined with demon forces.
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#20
(08-01-2011, 03:17 PM)NECatholic Wrote:
(08-01-2011, 03:04 PM)ecclesiastes Wrote: There is a lot about it at http://www.catholic.com/library/Astrology.asp (including quotes)

Astrology today is quite different than it was in the Medieval period.  Back then, astronomy and astrology were a combined science (not a religion).  In the medieval way of thinking, you couldn't study the stars and planets without studying the ways and forces they held over human beings. 

Today, astrology is now separated from the science of astronomy.   Modern day neo-pagans have embraced and assimilated astrology into their religion - which means, of course, that Catholics are forbidden to indulge in this.  During the early Church, as it is today with neo-pagans, astrology was a part of the Roman religion and was thus forbidden.  But during the Medieval period, astrology and astronomy were considered a combined science, not a religion.


Thank you, NEcatholic, for your wonderful comments.
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