Pacifism
#31
(08-04-2011, 11:35 PM)LausTibiChriste Wrote: I was referring more to actual warfare. The one's I know are pacifists.

We are so far beyond the point of no return that you better check what NASA says about the coming solar flares for next year.
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#32
(08-04-2011, 11:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 11:35 PM)LausTibiChriste Wrote: I was referring more to actual warfare. The one's I know are pacifists.

Nouvelle vague, most likely.

Sentimentalist crap.

I don't understand your post.  Could you rephrase it?  Thank you.
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#33
(08-04-2011, 10:51 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 09:08 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 08:11 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 08:03 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings.

He did not say 'God damn the Muslims'. He simply stated the truth that they are damned by God unless they leave their errors and find the true Faith.

This is a Catholic forum. You can justify it in your own mind any way you see fit, but it is a word that is formulated to deliver a curse. Pointing out what he did not say doesn't make taking the name of God in vain to consider someone preemptively damned any more right.

I could say, "God damn it" in reference to my pen, and you could argue that there is no harm done because my pencil is a non-sentient object.

But again, I think you miss the principle of the issue.

@ Inpefess.

OK.  I'll rephrase it.  "When those wonderful sons of Mahomet who adore the god-moon-devil Astaroth wanted to invade Europe in order to  make it either muslim or destroy it, they were defeated in a bloody, furious and savage  naval battle at Lepanto, thanks to the coalition of catholic princes under the guidance of John of Austria, and mainly to the  approval and prayers of Pope St. Pius V who is in Heaven righrt now.

Is that better Inpefess?


I hope you can read Spanish or at least be able to translate via Google Word Lingo the following news item.


"En Sudán, desde finales del XIX la población se ha visto sometida a un proceso de islamización; hace años comenzó a exaltarse de manera extremista una guerra santa para transformar el país en una república árabe-islámica.  Han muerto ya casi dos millones de cristianos. El cerebro de la operación, el jeque Hassan el Tourabi – llamado el «Maquiavelo de Jartum» – enunció en 1989 el credo que anima esa persecución: «La era del cristianismo se acabó. El 2000 será la era del Islam». Según la agencia Fides, en Sudán los islamizantes «son responsables del tráfico de adolescentes y jóvenes para ser vendidos en los mercados del Norte y Oriente Medio como esclavos y prostitutas».  En la periferia de Hajj Yssef, a pocos kilómetros de la capital, la Iglesia local había creado un centro polivalente para los refugiados en el cual los jóvenes eran alimentados, se les enseñaba catecismo, y se celebraba la Eucaristía. La mayoría de los refugiados eran cristianos. La población fue forzada a evacuar la zona y apañárselas en el desierto.  La intolerancia hacia los cristianos se clasifica en tres grados, como señala AIN: discriminación, discriminación con indicios de persecución, y persecución acuciante como en Sudán, China, Egipto, India, Indonesia o Timor Este, país con un 95% de cristianos, de los cuales 200 fueron masacrados por las milicias indonesias. Más tarde el acoso llegó a las Islas Molucas."
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#34
(08-04-2011, 10:08 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: INPEFESS, no one implied that we should not pray for their conversion. Wulfrano stated a fact and you're trying to make it out that he was calling down curses on them. Not so.

It is the logical conclusion of the use of the word.

He did not say they will be "goddamned" unless they convert--that they are "god-will-be-damned Muslims" (unless they convert); he said they are "goddamned Muslims".

It is very simple. No-one is damned until they are dead and judged by God. Referring to a whole group of people as "goddamned", especially when that includes those who are still alive and, therefore, not yet damned, assumes that God has already judged those people as damned while they are still alive because they have, at a certain point in failed, failed to convert. This is not a Catholic attitude, and I am surprised that you are justifying taking the name of God in vain as well as accepting that it's O.K. to consider people who aren't even dead yet already dead and judged as damned. Damned if they die outside the Church: yes; damned while they're still alive and have a chance to repent: no.
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#35
(08-05-2011, 12:52 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 10:08 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: INPEFESS, no one implied that we should not pray for their conversion. Wulfrano stated a fact and you're trying to make it out that he was calling down curses on them. Not so.

It is the logical conclusion of the use of the word.

He did not say they will be "goddamned" unless they convert--that they are "god-will-be-damned Muslims" (unless they convert); he said they are "goddamned Muslims".

It is very simple. No-one is damned until they are dead and judged by God. Referring to a whole group of people as "goddamned", especially when that includes those who are still alive and, therefore, not yet damned, assumes that God has already judged those people as damned while they are still alive because they have, at a certain point in failed, failed to convert. This is not a Catholic attitude, and I am surprised that you are justifying taking the name of God in vain as well as accepting that it's O.K. to consider people who aren't even dead yet already dead and judged as damned. Damned if they die outside the Church: yes; damned while they're still alive and have a chance to repent: no.

I hope you feel the same way when they enter your house, burn it down and kill your wife and children (as they have already done so with millions of christians).
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#36
(08-04-2011, 11:15 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 10:05 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 09:31 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 09:08 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: But again, I think you miss the principle of the issue.

And I think you miss the principles of English grammar.

***Edited to add***

Unless, of course, you believe that the God damned Muslims worship the same God we do and can find salvation in their infidelity, in which case you might be right.

No, you are confusing the issue by adding your own qualifiers to what was said to make distinctions to mitigate and cover up what was said.

The word calls upon God, in vain, to judge as damned, indiscriminately and without qualification, all Muslims, even those who are yet living. "Principles of grammar" cannot cover this up, no matter how much that may be desirable.

Doesn't the Christian religion teach that you're supposed to be praying for their conversion before they go to the judgment seat of God, not calling upon God, in vain, to judge them as damned on account of the fact that they have so far presumably resisted His grace? Isn't there a commandment against calling upon God in vain in any context, let alone to call upon Him in vain to judge as damned those to whom we should beg that He show mercy? God has been merciful with us; we should pray that He shows them as much mercy as He has shown us instead of invoking God's wrath to judge those whom He has willed should yet have more time to repent.

Dear Inpefess:  Your thoughts are those of a cloistered monk or a convent sister.

No, they are the thoughts of a Christian. We are all called to be perfect, not just cloistered monks and nuns.

Quote:  Definitely you are passive.

I would join the crusades in a heart beat. I am far from passive. I simply don't see how any traditional Catholic can justify taking upon himself the task of declaring which people, according to his subjective perspective, are already damned and which are not. That's God's business, not ours.  

Quote:  But in the real world of today, at this moment, worldwide, muslims are butchering christians in Africa and Asia precisely because of their faith in Our Lord and in Our Lady.  May all those murderers go to you know where.  Once there, they will learn to respect the life of fellow christians who love Our Lord and Our Lady and despise Mahomet.  I don't know where you live but if you are christian, soon they will visit you, burn your house down and kill your wife and children.   Then what will you do?  Pray like a woman or act like a man?

You are preaching to the choir. You make a lot of assumptions about me and yet you know very little about me.

My involvement in this thread is simply to correct the reckless declaration that those we perceive to be Muslims are all "goddamned". Let God do the damning and us do the crusading.

We're Christians. We have the true God to please. We're better than this.
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#37
(08-05-2011, 12:56 AM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 12:52 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 10:08 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: INPEFESS, no one implied that we should not pray for their conversion. Wulfrano stated a fact and you're trying to make it out that he was calling down curses on them. Not so.

It is the logical conclusion of the use of the word.

He did not say they will be "goddamned" unless they convert--that they are "god-will-be-damned Muslims" (unless they convert); he said they are "goddamned Muslims".

It is very simple. No-one is damned until they are dead and judged by God. Referring to a whole group of people as "goddamned", especially when that includes those who are still alive and, therefore, not yet damned, assumes that God has already judged those people as damned while they are still alive because they have, at a certain point in failed, failed to convert. This is not a Catholic attitude, and I am surprised that you are justifying taking the name of God in vain as well as accepting that it's O.K. to consider people who aren't even dead yet already dead and judged as damned. Damned if they die outside the Church: yes; damned while they're still alive and have a chance to repent: no.

I hope you feel the same way when they enter your house, burn it down and kill your wife and children (as they have already done so with millions of christians).

You are trying to appeal to my emotionality to try to convince me that it is acceptable to compromise Christ's teachings whenever I am emotionally devastated.

You are a man. Let us reason like men, not with appeals to the fleeting whims of emotion to try to win the argument.
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#38
(08-04-2011, 10:51 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 09:08 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 08:11 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 08:03 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings.

He did not say 'God damn the Muslims'. He simply stated the truth that they are damned by God unless they leave their errors and find the true Faith.

This is a Catholic forum. You can justify it in your own mind any way you see fit, but it is a word that is formulated to deliver a curse. Pointing out what he did not say doesn't make taking the name of God in vain to consider someone preemptively damned any more right.

I could say, "God damn it" in reference to my pen, and you could argue that there is no harm done because my pencil is a non-sentient object.

But again, I think you miss the principle of the issue.

@ Inpefess.

OK.  I'll rephrase it.  "When those wonderful sons of Mahomet who adore the god-moon-devil Astaroth wanted to invade Europe in order to  make it either muslim or destroy it, they were defeated in a bloody, furious and savage  naval battle at Lepanto, thanks to the coalition of catholic princes under the guidance of John of Austria, and mainly to the  approval and prayers of Pope St. Pius V who is in Heaven righrt now.

Is that better Inpefess?

Yes, that is better.
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#39
(08-05-2011, 01:05 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 12:56 AM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 12:52 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 10:08 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: INPEFESS, no one implied that we should not pray for their conversion. Wulfrano stated a fact and you're trying to make it out that he was calling down curses on them. Not so.

It is the logical conclusion of the use of the word.

He did not say they will be "goddamned" unless they convert--that they are "god-will-be-damned Muslims" (unless they convert); he said they are "goddamned Muslims".

It is very simple. No-one is damned until they are dead and judged by God. Referring to a whole group of people as "goddamned", especially when that includes those who are still alive and, therefore, not yet damned, assumes that God has already judged those people as damned while they are still alive because they have, at a certain point in failed, failed to convert. This is not a Catholic attitude, and I am surprised that you are justifying taking the name of God in vain as well as accepting that it's O.K. to consider people who aren't even dead yet already dead and judged as damned. Damned if they die outside the Church: yes; damned while they're still alive and have a chance to repent: no.

I hope you feel the same way when they enter your house, burn it down and kill your wife and children (as they have already done so with millions of christians).

You are trying to appeal to my emotionality to try to convince me that it is acceptable to compromise Christ's teachings whenever I am emotionally devastated.

You are a man. Let us reason like men, not with appeals to the fleeting whims of emotion to try to win the argument.


OK.  Just remember what muslims really are.  Just rememeber what they've always been and what they will always be.They are the same fanatical throat-cutters ever since the time of Mahomet.  Their favorite prayer is "Kill the infidels!"  You saw them in France burning automobiles.  You saw them in Africa with "machetes" cutting heads off.  You saw them in Asia burning homes down.  OK.  When your turn comes, don't say I did not warn you.
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#40
(08-05-2011, 01:22 AM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 01:05 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 12:56 AM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 12:52 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 10:08 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: INPEFESS, no one implied that we should not pray for their conversion. Wulfrano stated a fact and you're trying to make it out that he was calling down curses on them. Not so.

It is the logical conclusion of the use of the word.

He did not say they will be "goddamned" unless they convert--that they are "god-will-be-damned Muslims" (unless they convert); he said they are "goddamned Muslims".

It is very simple. No-one is damned until they are dead and judged by God. Referring to a whole group of people as "goddamned", especially when that includes those who are still alive and, therefore, not yet damned, assumes that God has already judged those people as damned while they are still alive because they have, at a certain point in failed, failed to convert. This is not a Catholic attitude, and I am surprised that you are justifying taking the name of God in vain as well as accepting that it's O.K. to consider people who aren't even dead yet already dead and judged as damned. Damned if they die outside the Church: yes; damned while they're still alive and have a chance to repent: no.

I hope you feel the same way when they enter your house, burn it down and kill your wife and children (as they have already done so with millions of christians).

You are trying to appeal to my emotionality to try to convince me that it is acceptable to compromise Christ's teachings whenever I am emotionally devastated.

You are a man. Let us reason like men, not with appeals to the fleeting whims of emotion to try to win the argument.


OK.  Just remember what muslims really are.  Just rememeber what they've always been and what they will always be.They are the same fanatical throat-cutters ever since the time of Mahomet.  Their favorite prayer is "Kill the infidels!"  You saw them in France burning automobiles.  You saw them in Africa with "machetes" cutting heads off.  You saw them in Asia burning homes down.  OK.  When your turn comes, don't say I did not warn you.

I won't say you didn't warn me. I think you need to read what I've written and realize that one can be a non-pacifist and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ at the same time. That means that one can both be a non-pacifist and yet refrain from declaring the certain damnation of all living Muslims at the same time.

There are things worse than death, you know. Suffering in hell for eternity for disobeying Christ is one of them. Martyrdom at the hands of a Muslim is a sure way to get to Heaven.
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