Pacifism
#41
(08-05-2011, 01:43 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 01:22 AM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 01:05 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 12:56 AM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 12:52 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 10:08 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: INPEFESS, no one implied that we should not pray for their conversion. Wulfrano stated a fact and you're trying to make it out that he was calling down curses on them. Not so.

It is the logical conclusion of the use of the word.

He did not say they will be "goddamned" unless they convert--that they are "god-will-be-damned Muslims" (unless they convert); he said they are "goddamned Muslims".

It is very simple. No-one is damned until they are dead and judged by God. Referring to a whole group of people as "goddamned", especially when that includes those who are still alive and, therefore, not yet damned, assumes that God has already judged those people as damned while they are still alive because they have, at a certain point in failed, failed to convert. This is not a Catholic attitude, and I am surprised that you are justifying taking the name of God in vain as well as accepting that it's O.K. to consider people who aren't even dead yet already dead and judged as damned. Damned if they die outside the Church: yes; damned while they're still alive and have a chance to repent: no.

I hope you feel the same way when they enter your house, burn it down and kill your wife and children (as they have already done so with millions of christians).

You are trying to appeal to my emotionality to try to convince me that it is acceptable to compromise Christ's teachings whenever I am emotionally devastated.

You are a man. Let us reason like men, not with appeals to the fleeting whims of emotion to try to win the argument.


OK.  Just remember what muslims really are.  Just rememeber what they've always been and what they will always be.They are the same fanatical throat-cutters ever since the time of Mahomet.  Their favorite prayer is "Kill the infidels!"  You saw them in France burning automobiles.  You saw them in Africa with "machetes" cutting heads off.  You saw them in Asia burning homes down.  OK.  When your turn comes, don't say I did not warn you.

I won't say you didn't warn me. I think you need to read what I've written and realize that one can be a non-pacifist and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ at the same time. That means that one can both be a non-pacifist and yet refrain from declaring the certain damnation of all living Muslims at the same time.

There are things worse than death, you know. Suffering in hell for eternity for disobeying Christ is one of them. Martyrdom at the hands of a Muslim is a sure way to get to Heaven.

Dear Inpefess.  I know what you are trying to say and you are right.  The mark of a christian is the love for his enemies.
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#42
(08-05-2011, 01:43 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: There are things worse than death, you know. Suffering in hell for eternity for disobeying Christ is one of them. Martyrdom at the hands of a Muslim is a sure way to get to Heaven.

That's definitely true, but should we in the face of death lay down and let it happen, or fight back and try to stop the Islamic terror until we are killed?

That's basically what I'm looking for. Biblical evidence or evidence from the Church fathers which permits one to physically fight against the enemy in such a case.
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#43
(08-05-2011, 02:01 AM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 01:43 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: There are things worse than death, you know. Suffering in hell for eternity for disobeying Christ is one of them. Martyrdom at the hands of a Muslim is a sure way to get to Heaven.

That's definitely true, but should we in the face of death lay down and let it happen, or fight back and try to stop the Islamic terror until we are killed?

That's basically what I'm looking for. Biblical evidence or evidence from the Church fathers which permits one to physically fight against the enemy in such a case.

You might have missed it in the OT verbiage (which I participated in. Sorry.), but have you looked at the Soldier Saints, like the Theban Legion? Far from being pacifists, they were on their way to the front to fight when they were martyred for refusing to sacrifice to the Emperor.
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#44
(08-05-2011, 02:01 AM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 01:43 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: There are things worse than death, you know. Suffering in hell for eternity for disobeying Christ is one of them. Martyrdom at the hands of a Muslim is a sure way to get to Heaven.

That's definitely true, but should we in the face of death lay down and let it happen, or fight back and try to stop the Islamic terror until we are killed?

That's basically what I'm looking for. Biblical evidence or evidence from the Church fathers which permits one to physically fight against the enemy in such a case.

My goodness, Kevinhood!  Haven't  you heard of St. Bernard and the Crusades?  Of St. Pius V and Lepanto?  Of the Vendées in France during the French Revolution?  Of the mexican Christeros in 1926-1929?  Of Franco in Spain in 1936-1939?  What is this world coming to?
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#45
(08-05-2011, 02:01 AM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 01:43 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: There are things worse than death, you know. Suffering in hell for eternity for disobeying Christ is one of them. Martyrdom at the hands of a Muslim is a sure way to get to Heaven.

That's definitely true, but should we in the face of death lay down and let it happen, or fight back and try to stop the Islamic terror until we are killed?

Of course we are not required to lay down and let it happen. This is not what I said at all.

I was responding to Wulfrano's post that seemed to imply that the ultimate evil was to be killed by a Muslim, and he seemed to be defending his use of "goddamned" because Muslims are evil and want to kill Christians. This, he seemed to imply, justified his usage of the word.

But a false dichotomy was established whereby it seemed to be implied that opposition to calling Muslims "goddamned" renders one a pacifist by default. But I disagreed and said that we could avoid declaring this preemptive judgment upon all Muslims and yet not be pacifists.

The implication then seemed to be that because I was opposed to this declaration of the fate of all Muslims, that I would change my mind when they came after me. And I again disagreed. For some things are worse than death, such as breaking God's law (and then being tormented in hell for all eternity as a result), so dying at the hands of a Muslim would be better than doing this.

Quote:That's basically what I'm looking for. Biblical evidence or evidence from the Church fathers which permits one to physically fight against the enemy in such a case.

It is a good topic. I will refrain from derailing the topic any further.
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#46
(08-05-2011, 12:17 AM)wulfrano Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 11:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(08-04-2011, 11:35 PM)LausTibiChriste Wrote: I was referring more to actual warfare. The one's I know are pacifists.

Nouvelle vague, most likely.

Sentimentalist crap.

I don't understand your post.  Could you rephrase it?  Thank you.

"Pacifist" Protestants are a novelty, a fruit of sentimentalism and modernism.
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#47
(08-05-2011, 10:13 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: "Pacifist" Protestants are a novelty, a fruit of sentimentalism and modernism.
Contemporary mainline Prot pacifism is modernist sentimentalism, but there is a fairly long history of Protestant "pacifism" in the form of Mennonites, Amish, Quakers, etc.  A lot of this can be attributed to one sided sola scriptura.  The same strains of thought and behavior were also present among the 11th century Cathar heretics.
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#48
some prods are pacfist
few but some are
the quackers come to mind. but i dunno how many r left of those.
but for th emost part the prods are vile bastards who constantly attack catholics every chance they get
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#49
(08-05-2011, 10:44 AM)Landelinus Wrote:
(08-05-2011, 10:13 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: "Pacifist" Protestants are a novelty, a fruit of sentimentalism and modernism.
Contemporary mainline Prot pacifism is modernist sentimentalism, but there is a fairly long history of Protestant "pacifism" in the form of Mennonites, Amish, Quakers, etc.   A lot of this can be attributed to one sided sola scriptura.  The same strains of thought and behavior were also present among the 11th century Cathar heretics.

Yes but those are fringe groups even within the scope of Protestantism.

The mainline historical Protestant churches were never pacifist, quite the contrary.
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#50
thats true.
the amish and menonites were and are a strange breed. then and now. good sausages aside. (so ive been told)
but the menonites were serious drug runners and organized crime contenders in pensilvilna not too long ago so
lol
only in america
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