New Sungenis vs Dimond debate
#11
Still... it's funny.
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#12
(08-14-2011, 05:44 PM)Sigfrid Wrote:
(08-12-2011, 05:01 AM)Joshua Wrote:
(08-11-2011, 07:54 PM)faith3faith Wrote: Apparently, Peter Dimond is a sedevacantist.

Good detective work, Columbo!  ;D

Reminds me of the MHFM lawsuit. Some man joined their "monastery" and donated 1,6 million $ before realising that they weren't in communion with Rome. Then he sued them. There's much the Dimonds one day will have to answer for, but keeping their empty-chair-ism a secret isn't one of them.

Actually, the man joined knowing everything in advance but read some Una Cum pamphlets, then decided to leave. Now he's suing.
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#13
The SV arguments are pretty strong.  But those arguments have little to do with the Dimond brothers per se.  Those arguments have been developed by other SVs and some, frankly, by non-SV Trads who have just been wondering how things can be so FUBAR.  Mario Derksen (an SV) wrote some very strong arguments about 5 years ago.  Then there is the Christ of Chaos guy too who presents much strong arguments than the Dimond brothers.

However, there is an equally strong proof that SVism is in error.  None of the SV camps can get even 1% of the way to claiming to be the Universal Church.  It just does not wash with me that God lets the entire billion strong Catholic Church dissolve in 50 years, and the most credible force opposing that modernism, the SSPX and the FSSP, who currently function on every continent, then actually make the major error of showing fidelity (in principle if not practice) to 5 false Popes in a row, while the Holy Ghost deserts Rome to move to a weird little splinter group in Oshkosh, Missouri or Yackandandah, VIC

I cannot get to Mass with my family at either.  Neither can 99% of the rest of Traditionalists around the world.  SVism is simply too marginal to be a viable option.

That would be the gates of Hell prevailing in my opinion. To say the gates of Hell have not prevailed because Pope Gregory XIII was enthroned in his mother's conservatory with 5 on-lookers is to my mind completely nuts.

If SVs were as coherent a force as the SSPX and provided a genuine and nearly universal "rest-stop" or island of sanity in this crazy FUBAR world then I'd gladly throw my hat in the ring with them.  But they are not any less screwy and prone to bad decisions and poor judgement that the other sections of Traditionalism.  And that suggests to me that SVs don't have exclusivity on the power of the Holy Ghost.

If SVs had the truth I'd expect them to have grown in leaps and bounds over the past 30 years and provide the best, most edifying places to go to Church, have the holiest priests and be highly attractive compared to the alternatives.

I do agree with Dimond though that argument that Popes need to be formally charged with their heresy "just so we can check they are not mistaken" is completely crazy.  That would be like saying Bernie Madoff was not guilty until he could show you that he could add up and take away.  The argument that the Supreme Head of the Church could be invincibly ignorant of Church teaching is completely crackers.  It's the same bullshit as claiming that B16 used "mental reservation" when he told the world that the Third Secret of Fatima had been revealed "in its entirety".  

I can only conclude that if you are confused and find yourself in a minefield that the most sensible thing to do is stay still.  And if you don't find the current situation highly confusing then you're either 1000 times smarter than me, or substantially more stupid.
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#14
(08-14-2011, 06:00 PM)Servire Deo Wrote:
(08-14-2011, 05:44 PM)Sigfrid Wrote:
(08-12-2011, 05:01 AM)Joshua Wrote:
(08-11-2011, 07:54 PM)faith3faith Wrote: Apparently, Peter Dimond is a sedevacantist.

Good detective work, Columbo!  ;D

Reminds me of the MHFM lawsuit. Some man joined their "monastery" and donated 1,6 million $ before realising that they weren't in communion with Rome. Then he sued them. There's much the Dimonds one day will have to answer for, but keeping their empty-chair-ism a secret isn't one of them.

Actually, the man joined knowing everything in advance but read some Una Cum pamphlets, then decided to leave. Now he's suing.

A fool and his money are soon parted.
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#15
(08-14-2011, 06:14 PM)ggreg Wrote: I can only conclude that if you are confused and find yourself in a minefield that the most sensible thing to do is stay still.  And if you don't find the current situation highly confusing then you're either 1000 times smarter than me, or substantially more stupid.

Yes. I don't know where to turn. I cannot embrace Sede but obviously things are mega screwed up.
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#16
Why not just go to the nearest Traditional Mass where you feel your souls is least troubled.

If you think the people there are nuts go to the next one. If they are all a bit nuts then alternate between one and another.

God has to step in at some stage.  Wait.  Meanwhile drink whiskey and eat steak until God does something.

That is what I do.
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#17
(08-14-2011, 06:37 PM)ggreg Wrote: Why not just go to the nearest Traditional Mass where you feel your souls is least troubled.

If you think the people there are nuts go to the next one. If they are all a bit nuts then alternate between one and another.

God has to step in at some stage.  Wait.  Meanwhile drink whiskey and eat steak until God does something.

That is what I do.

I cry myself to sleep every night thinking about how far we have fallen, and keep falling.

And I prefer to drink port and wine with my steak.
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#18
You should realize that not all Sedes take such a grim view of the church. Indeed, many acknowledge that those who intend to be Catholic ARE a part of the Catholic church.

I look at it this way: Sedevacantism is a very logical conclusion to a very big problem. The church size is not really an issue, after all "when the son of man returns, will he find, think you, faith upon the earth?" Plus, there have been all KINDS of forewarnings of a great apostasy. In fact, the third secret of Fatima was ABOUT the great apostasy in the church which would seem nearly unbelievable and begin at the top. That is what the Bishop of Fatima and S. Lucias Personal confessors have said, since she was obliged to tell them what the third secret consisted of.

If Vatican II and all that is Valid, then GOd understands the decision to become Sedevacantist, and he knows that you do it in good faith. Heck, if he doesn't even condemn MUSLIMS why would he condemn you?

On the other hand, suppose everything that Sedevacantists claim to be true IS true, it would sure be nice to err on the side of Caution. Either way, you are apparently pleasing to God being a sedevacantist. If we are to believe Vatican II.
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#19
For what it's worth, I find peace in reciting the Office. I think of Jesus and the Apostles in the NT where it says they or Jesus went up to the Temple to pray.
The Temple prayers were the psalms and the canticles, and we today pray exactly the same psalms and canticles. I sometimes realize I am but a single person in a line going back to S. King David, through the First and Seond Temple, to Jesus, the Apostles, after it's destruction up to S. Benedict who codified  his Office, to today. An unbroken line for 3000 years. Think of all the tribulations from then until now. The Church of God has been under attack forever. Sometimes it was down to a handful like in the time of the Arian heresy. The Lord said He would not leave us orphans, and even if these times are perplexing and nearly impossible to figure out, He will not leave us confounded forever. It reminds me of the yiddish-ism "are your arms too short to box with God?".
This stuff can not be fixed by us except by prayer. Pope Benedict isn't going to call any of us and say come on over and straighten us out on this will you ?
I'm not saying to forget about it ,but do not let it consume you. It is the responsibility of the Pope, Cardinals, and Bishops to fix this. Hold fast to what you have received.

tim
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#20
(08-18-2011, 01:47 AM)Gregory I Wrote: You should realize that not all Sedes take such a grim view of the church. Indeed, many acknowledge that those who intend to be Catholic ARE a part of the Catholic church.

I look at it this way: Sedevacantism is a very logical conclusion to a very big problem. The church size is not really an issue, after all "when the son of man returns, will he find, think you, faith upon the earth?" Plus, there have been all KINDS of forewarnings of a great apostasy. In fact, the third secret of Fatima was ABOUT the great apostasy in the church which would seem nearly unbelievable and begin at the top. That is what the Bishop of Fatima and S. Lucias Personal confessors have said, since she was obliged to tell them what the third secret consisted of.

If Vatican II and all that is Valid, then GOd understands the decision to become Sedevacantist, and he knows that you do it in good faith. Heck, if he doesn't even condemn MUSLIMS why would he condemn you?

On the other hand, suppose everything that Sedevacantists claim to be true IS true, it would sure be nice to err on the side of Caution. Either way, you are apparently pleasing to God being a sedevacantist. If we are to believe Vatican II.

You make a lot of good points.

The problem is that when I stand back and look at my capacity to understand all the things I would need to understand to arrive at the destination of SVism I just don't feel that I am intellectually capable of making that decision.  On the balance of probabilities it seems to me that the prudent thing is to assume that the hierarchy are still in charge.  After all the Jewish leaders were evil and in error for all of Jesus' 33 years on earth but they were still the leaders and He acknowledged them as such.  They did not lose their authority, simply for being evil and wrong.

And the problem is that while I am not the cleverest person I know, I am pretty damned clever as people go and certainly my judgement on most things in life is pretty good.  I tend to judge situations and people correctly most of the time.  I know I am not an idiot compared to most other people.

I simply don't believe that the SVs have out-thought me on this issue or are able to consider a greater amount of evidence than I am or more complex arguments.  What I see is a reactive and emotional decision by them, based on a lot of genuine angst and anger and disappointment, surely, but I don't consider it to be a well thought through and rational choice.  And if it was that intellectually complex to see the truth, then God would be being terribly unjust on the poor and the stupid of the world since there is no way they could sign up to Sedevacantism.

The problem is that once apostolic succession and all credibility is lost to the 2000 year old instituion it can never really be regained by a disperate bunch of SVs even if in 1000 years you have your own Vatican like structure in Peking, China.

And that is my problem.  You only get to burn the visible structure of the Church down once as far as I can see, then credibility and indefectability are flawed.

I am pretty close to the end of my tether.  If for example they canonize JP2, I'll have nothing to do with the official organ of the Roman Church any longer.  That is my personal line in the sand.

Or if B16 said artificial birth control was OK I'd do the same.

But I would not become an SV at that point as it would make no rational sense to me to sign up to a religion when the gates of hell had prevailed against it last time.

Once you set a precedent of individuals disposing Popes for "heresy" then you've opened a can of worms for every future Pope.  If we are in the last times, which we might well be, then what does it really matter anyway?
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