New Sungenis vs Dimond debate
#20
(08-18-2011, 01:47 AM)Gregory I Wrote: You should realize that not all Sedes take such a grim view of the church. Indeed, many acknowledge that those who intend to be Catholic ARE a part of the Catholic church.

I look at it this way: Sedevacantism is a very logical conclusion to a very big problem. The church size is not really an issue, after all "when the son of man returns, will he find, think you, faith upon the earth?" Plus, there have been all KINDS of forewarnings of a great apostasy. In fact, the third secret of Fatima was ABOUT the great apostasy in the church which would seem nearly unbelievable and begin at the top. That is what the Bishop of Fatima and S. Lucias Personal confessors have said, since she was obliged to tell them what the third secret consisted of.

If Vatican II and all that is Valid, then GOd understands the decision to become Sedevacantist, and he knows that you do it in good faith. Heck, if he doesn't even condemn MUSLIMS why would he condemn you?

On the other hand, suppose everything that Sedevacantists claim to be true IS true, it would sure be nice to err on the side of Caution. Either way, you are apparently pleasing to God being a sedevacantist. If we are to believe Vatican II.

You make a lot of good points.

The problem is that when I stand back and look at my capacity to understand all the things I would need to understand to arrive at the destination of SVism I just don't feel that I am intellectually capable of making that decision.  On the balance of probabilities it seems to me that the prudent thing is to assume that the hierarchy are still in charge.  After all the Jewish leaders were evil and in error for all of Jesus' 33 years on earth but they were still the leaders and He acknowledged them as such.  They did not lose their authority, simply for being evil and wrong.

And the problem is that while I am not the cleverest person I know, I am pretty damned clever as people go and certainly my judgement on most things in life is pretty good.  I tend to judge situations and people correctly most of the time.  I know I am not an idiot compared to most other people.

I simply don't believe that the SVs have out-thought me on this issue or are able to consider a greater amount of evidence than I am or more complex arguments.  What I see is a reactive and emotional decision by them, based on a lot of genuine angst and anger and disappointment, surely, but I don't consider it to be a well thought through and rational choice.  And if it was that intellectually complex to see the truth, then God would be being terribly unjust on the poor and the stupid of the world since there is no way they could sign up to Sedevacantism.

The problem is that once apostolic succession and all credibility is lost to the 2000 year old instituion it can never really be regained by a disperate bunch of SVs even if in 1000 years you have your own Vatican like structure in Peking, China.

And that is my problem.  You only get to burn the visible structure of the Church down once as far as I can see, then credibility and indefectability are flawed.

I am pretty close to the end of my tether.  If for example they canonize JP2, I'll have nothing to do with the official organ of the Roman Church any longer.  That is my personal line in the sand.

Or if B16 said artificial birth control was OK I'd do the same.

But I would not become an SV at that point as it would make no rational sense to me to sign up to a religion when the gates of hell had prevailed against it last time.

Once you set a precedent of individuals disposing Popes for "heresy" then you've opened a can of worms for every future Pope.  If we are in the last times, which we might well be, then what does it really matter anyway?
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Messages In This Thread
New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by faith3faith - 08-11-2011, 07:54 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Joshua - 08-12-2011, 05:01 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-14-2011, 03:03 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Sigfrid - 08-14-2011, 05:44 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Sigfrid - 08-14-2011, 05:57 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-14-2011, 06:14 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-14-2011, 06:15 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-14-2011, 06:37 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-18-2011, 01:47 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by timoose - 08-18-2011, 09:22 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-19-2011, 10:36 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-19-2011, 02:51 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-19-2011, 08:11 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Windmill - 08-20-2011, 03:23 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 05:48 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by nmoerbeek - 08-22-2011, 12:18 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-22-2011, 01:23 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by nmoerbeek - 08-22-2011, 10:37 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-22-2011, 08:03 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-25-2011, 08:09 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-25-2011, 08:12 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-25-2011, 08:31 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-29-2011, 01:13 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 09-01-2011, 07:11 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 09-04-2011, 02:59 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-04-2011, 03:13 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 09-04-2011, 01:46 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-05-2011, 03:40 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-05-2011, 04:04 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 09-05-2011, 05:21 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-05-2011, 10:42 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 09-06-2011, 12:46 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 09-06-2011, 01:11 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 09-06-2011, 04:19 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 09-07-2011, 04:27 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-07-2011, 06:24 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by thomas7 - 09-07-2011, 02:44 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 09-07-2011, 08:42 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 09-08-2011, 08:25 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-08-2011, 08:33 AM



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