New Sungenis vs Dimond debate
#25
Here are a couple of talks by the late, great Michael Davies that I found helpful WRT sedevacantism:

The Church That Cannot Failhttp://www.keepthefaith.org/detail.aspx?ID=463

Indeffectibility of the Churchhttp://www.keepthefaith.org/detail.aspx?ID=504


While I have a preference for the EF Mass, I realized some key things:

1) The Pope (BXVI) has legitimate authority, and that office of authority has a right to obedience from lower clergy and laity.  No, not if he asks you to do something sinful, but you can't tell me that ignoring the Popes of the last 50 years is something God wants you to do.  You are, in essence, judging the Pope.  Yes, you can claim that your conscience and intellect tell you one thing, but how can your reconcile continual disregard for the Vicar of Christ and yet claim submission to him?  You are being obedient to an academic idea, but it is clearly not evident in your life.  I'm not talking about being ultramontane, I'm talking about the type of obedience a child gives to his parent.   

2) No one on earth can judge the Pope, least of all a layman like myself.  Yes, you can disagree with certain policies, but outright rebellion or condemnation is a serious thing to do.  Again, if the Pope is not imposing something sinful, then you have to ask yourself if you are helping your own soul by condemning a man who, by Church teaching, is above your personal judgement.  God will judge him.  Your goal is to get to heaven.  If the Pope is not leading people into Hell, then you need to give him a wide berth.

3) WRT the changes in the liturgy, while it is sad, nonetheless the changes the Church imposed are not sinful.  Therefore one should be careful about condemning them.  This was a biggee for me.  ButI have come to realize that the liturgy is a gift from God, through the Church, to us for our sanctification.  While the forms may change (drastically at times), they communicate the grace they are meant to communicate.  While some forms may better communicate the reality of that grace to us sinful men, that does not mean that the less appealing forms will drive souls to Hell.  So we should not treat the liturgical reforms as if our eternal destiny is being threatened.  To complain about the forms of Mass is like complaining about the present your parents gave you for Christmas.  You receive it with love because it comes from parents who love you.  If they choose to hand down changes, Deo Gratias.  If not, I accept that.  But I think many people out there try to undercut the simple layman's trust in the Church by insinuating that the Church is trying to lead him away from authentic Catholicism with the New Mass.  Once you poison the well of trust, he will never drink from it again, and you start him down the road towards Sedevacantism.


4) As a layman, it is not my place to change the liturgy.  Thankfully, now there is a choice (OF/EF), but this is not a democracy where lobbyists are the vehicle of policy.  If I want to encourage the EF, I take my feet and dollars to EF Masses.  If I want better music, I should encourage or start a Gregorian chant group (which I have done and it is enjoying its 6th year of growth and popularity in our town).  But actual changes in the rites are Rome's business.  To complain about them is pointless since we are not effecting change.  Prayer and fasting are needed for areas of abuse.  Charity is needed at all times.
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Messages In This Thread
New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by faith3faith - 08-11-2011, 07:54 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Joshua - 08-12-2011, 05:01 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-14-2011, 03:03 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Sigfrid - 08-14-2011, 05:44 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Sigfrid - 08-14-2011, 05:57 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-14-2011, 06:14 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-14-2011, 06:15 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-14-2011, 06:37 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-18-2011, 01:47 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by timoose - 08-18-2011, 09:22 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-19-2011, 10:36 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-19-2011, 02:51 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-19-2011, 08:11 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Windmill - 08-20-2011, 03:23 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 05:48 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by nmoerbeek - 08-22-2011, 12:18 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-22-2011, 01:23 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by nmoerbeek - 08-22-2011, 10:37 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-22-2011, 08:03 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-25-2011, 08:09 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 08-25-2011, 08:12 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-25-2011, 08:31 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 08-29-2011, 01:13 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 09-01-2011, 07:11 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 09-04-2011, 02:59 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-04-2011, 03:13 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 09-04-2011, 01:46 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-05-2011, 03:40 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-05-2011, 04:04 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 09-05-2011, 05:21 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-05-2011, 10:42 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 09-06-2011, 12:46 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 09-06-2011, 01:11 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 09-06-2011, 04:19 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 09-07-2011, 04:27 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-07-2011, 06:24 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by thomas7 - 09-07-2011, 02:44 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by Gregory I - 09-07-2011, 08:42 PM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by ggreg - 09-08-2011, 08:25 AM
Re: New Sungenis vs Dimond debate - by INPEFESS - 09-08-2011, 08:33 AM



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