Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
#21
(08-20-2011, 08:00 PM)anthony Wrote: I contend that one does not have to be formally IN the Church to be saved. One can be saved by grace outside of visible communion. This is extraordinary, in the sense that it is something which may seem to occur outside of the established norm (the norm set by the Lord). We can't lost sight of the fact that while the Church and the sacramental life of the Church is an extension of Christ's Incarnation (the vehicle of redemption), that it is inconceivable that God would choose to limit himself to such, when reality itself has had and doubtless will have its limits (the truth having not reached all, or verily computed by all).

"That God would choose to limit Himself" really plays no part in the whole thing. He made the rules, we are to follow the rules or when we die, we spend eternity in hell.

If God chooses to break His laws, we'll never know in this world - in the mean time, He never made a single law that was impossible to adhere too.

To those who die outside the Church having never heard the truth will still be damned - perhaps their punishments will be less severe than a damned Catholic, but it still was their responsibility in this life to seek out and persevere in the truth. Ignorance never saves anyone.   





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#22
(08-20-2011, 09:06 PM)Stubborn Wrote: To those who die outside the Church having never heard the truth will still be damned - perhaps their punishments will be less severe than a damned Catholic, but it still was their responsibility in this life to seek out and persevere in the truth. Ignorance never saves anyone.     

Coulombe's argument--and he gives historical examples from antiquity and from modern history--is that God knows all hearts. When He sees men of good will in faraway places, he gets missionaries out to them. He'll even use extraordinary means to do this. For example, Sr. Agreda in the 17th century bilocated to the Indians in southern California. When the Spaniards arrived with the Franciscan missionaries, they found entire villages who had already been catechized by a "nun in blue' and were just waiting for the sacraments.
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#23
the holy office Wrote:Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.
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Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
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But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8 ): "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children" (Denzinger, n. 801).
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submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation.
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Your Excellency's most devoted,

F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani.

A. Ottaviani, Assessor.
Excerpts from a letter from the Holy Office, to Bishop Cushing of Boston dated 1949.

Think of it like perfect contrition.  Does it happen? Yes. Can you rely on it? No.
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#24
(08-20-2011, 09:13 PM)charlesh Wrote:
(08-20-2011, 09:06 PM)Stubborn Wrote: To those who die outside the Church having never heard the truth will still be damned - perhaps their punishments will be less severe than a damned Catholic, but it still was their responsibility in this life to seek out and persevere in the truth. Ignorance never saves anyone.     

Coulombe's argument--and he gives historical examples from antiquity and from modern history--is that God knows all hearts. When He sees men of good will in faraway places, he gets missionaries out to them. He'll even use extraordinary means to do this. For example, Sr. Agreda in the 17th century bilocated to the Indians in southern California. When the Spaniards arrived with the Franciscan missionaries, they found entire villages who had already been catechized by a "nun in blue' and were just waiting for the sacraments.

I completely agree.

Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they?

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#25
Stubborn, I think you were the one who told me that Pope St. Pius X didn't say that stuff about implicit desire in his first draft of his catechism. DO you know about that?
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#26
(08-20-2011, 11:51 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Stubborn, I think you were the one who told me that Pope St. Pius X didn't say that stuff about implicit desire in his first draft of his catechism. DO you know about that?

Not sure what you mean.

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#27
See the previous page. I think I heard that when Pope St. Pius X issued the first draft of his Catechism, he said nothing about implicit desire for baptism. However later editions did. DO you know anything about those revisions?
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#28
(08-21-2011, 12:08 AM)Gregory I Wrote: See the previous page. I think I heard that when Pope St. Pius X issued the first draft of his Catechism, he said nothing about implicit desire for baptism. However later editions did. DO you know anything about those revisions?

Oh that. Kinda makes the whole Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you..... pretty silly on God's part if ignorance is bliss eh?

Sorry but I don't know any specifics.
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#29
I know I'm late to the party here but I would highly suggest "Bread of Life" by Fr. Leonard Feeney for some good, concise lectures on EENS.
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#30
(08-18-2011, 02:52 PM)jbcatholic Wrote: Can someone suggest any good books that speak on the topic of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"?  As a former protestant I am more an more trying to understand the role of this doctrine.  Having just listened to a cd series on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the speaker spoke about how the post V II notion(heresy) of religious indifference, freedom of conscience, and minimism all have led to an abandonment of this doctrine, and an utter lack of true drive to win souls for Christ and His Church.  For, what is the great urgency to see anyone into Christ's earthly kingdom if they will ultimately be saved through a false religion anyways.  If you have any thoughts or suggestions on books or talks I'd love to hear it!

JB 

Yeah, St. Alphonss Liguori, Doctor of the Church which is a raising to the highest dignity and authority in regards to Church Teaching, and whom the Holy Office said whose opinions can be trusted by all confessors as a sure conclusion.  Read his explanation of "Desire of Baptism," and you will have the the weightiest opinion that the Church has given on the matter, and the source of which has come forth the declarations of the Popes in it's defense against all offenders.
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