Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
#31
(10-02-2011, 05:32 PM)jordanawef Wrote:
(08-18-2011, 02:52 PM)jbcatholic Wrote: Can someone suggest any good books that speak on the topic of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"?  As a former protestant I am more an more trying to understand the role of this doctrine.  Having just listened to a cd series on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the speaker spoke about how the post V II notion(heresy) of religious indifference, freedom of conscience, and minimism all have led to an abandonment of this doctrine, and an utter lack of true drive to win souls for Christ and His Church.  For, what is the great urgency to see anyone into Christ's earthly kingdom if they will ultimately be saved through a false religion anyways.  If you have any thoughts or suggestions on books or talks I'd love to hear it!

JB 

Yeah, St. Alphonss Liguori, Doctor of the Church which is a raising to the highest dignity and authority in regards to Church Teaching, and whom the Holy Office said whose opinions can be trusted by all confessors as a sure conclusion.  Read his explanation of "Desire of Baptism," and you will have the the weightiest opinion that the Church has given on the matter, and the source of which has come forth the declarations of the Popes in it's defense against all offenders.

Absolutely. Here is a quote from his book: http://www.archive.org/stream/alphonsusw...t_djvu.txt

CHAPTER II.

SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM.
1. With regard to its necessity, it should be known that Baptism is not only the first but also the most necessary
of all the sacraments. Without Baptism no one can enter heaven. Unless a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God.  It is also the most necessary, inasmuch as no one is capable of receiving any other sacrament if he has not previously received Baptism. Hence, Baptism is called the gate of all the sacraments.

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#32
I hardly think a soul that is in the position to having to have recourse to baptism of desire or baptism of blood will find it necessary to have access to other sacraments – as death is most likely at hand.
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#33
(10-02-2011, 07:36 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(10-02-2011, 05:32 PM)jordanawef Wrote:
(08-18-2011, 02:52 PM)jbcatholic Wrote: Can someone suggest any good books that speak on the topic of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"?  As a former protestant I am more an more trying to understand the role of this doctrine.  Having just listened to a cd series on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the speaker spoke about how the post V II notion(heresy) of religious indifference, freedom of conscience, and minimism all have led to an abandonment of this doctrine, and an utter lack of true drive to win souls for Christ and His Church.  For, what is the great urgency to see anyone into Christ's earthly kingdom if they will ultimately be saved through a false religion anyways.  If you have any thoughts or suggestions on books or talks I'd love to hear it!

JB 

Yeah, St. Alphonss Liguori, Doctor of the Church which is a raising to the highest dignity and authority in regards to Church Teaching, and whom the Holy Office said whose opinions can be trusted by all confessors as a sure conclusion.  Read his explanation of "Desire of Baptism," and you will have the the weightiest opinion that the Church has given on the matter, and the source of which has come forth the declarations of the Popes in it's defense against all offenders.

Absolutely. Here is a quote from his book: http://www.archive.org/stream/alphonsusw...t_djvu.txt

CHAPTER II.

SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM.
1. With regard to its necessity, it should be known that Baptism is not only the first but also the most necessary
of all the sacraments. Without Baptism no one can enter heaven. Unless a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God.  It is also the most necessary, inasmuch as no one is capable of receiving any other sacrament if he has not previously received Baptism. Hence, Baptism is called the gate of all the sacraments.

That sounds subversive of St. Alphonsus.  I said, in Theologia Moralis, see his teaching on "Desire of Baptism," not to detract from necessity of reception of the Sacrament, but "Desire for Baptism," from the Doctor, nonetheless.  I take the toto of St. Alphonsus, not the bits and pieces that please my fancy.

Tootaloo.
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#34
(10-02-2011, 11:25 PM)jordanawef Wrote:
(10-02-2011, 07:36 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(10-02-2011, 05:32 PM)jordanawef Wrote:
(08-18-2011, 02:52 PM)jbcatholic Wrote: Can someone suggest any good books that speak on the topic of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"?  As a former protestant I am more an more trying to understand the role of this doctrine.  Having just listened to a cd series on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the speaker spoke about how the post V II notion(heresy) of religious indifference, freedom of conscience, and minimism all have led to an abandonment of this doctrine, and an utter lack of true drive to win souls for Christ and His Church.  For, what is the great urgency to see anyone into Christ's earthly kingdom if they will ultimately be saved through a false religion anyways.  If you have any thoughts or suggestions on books or talks I'd love to hear it!

JB 

Yeah, St. Alphonss Liguori, Doctor of the Church which is a raising to the highest dignity and authority in regards to Church Teaching, and whom the Holy Office said whose opinions can be trusted by all confessors as a sure conclusion.  Read his explanation of "Desire of Baptism," and you will have the the weightiest opinion that the Church has given on the matter, and the source of which has come forth the declarations of the Popes in it's defense against all offenders.

Absolutely. Here is a quote from his book: http://www.archive.org/stream/alphonsusw...t_djvu.txt

CHAPTER II.

SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM.
1. With regard to its necessity, it should be known that Baptism is not only the first but also the most necessary
of all the sacraments. Without Baptism no one can enter heaven. Unless a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God.  It is also the most necessary, inasmuch as no one is capable of receiving any other sacrament if he has not previously received Baptism. Hence, Baptism is called the gate of all the sacraments.

That sounds subversive of St. Alphonsus.  I said, in Theologia Moralis, see his teaching on "Desire of Baptism," not to detract from necessity of reception of the Sacrament, but "Desire for Baptism," from the Doctor, nonetheless.  I take the toto of St. Alphonsus, not the bits and pieces that please my fancy.

Tootaloo.

Yes, it is very contradictory of St. Alphonsus, one of my favorite patron saints. But that is the reason I posted it. To show precisely that, St. Alphonss Liguori, Doctor of the Church which is a raising to the highest dignity and authority in regards to Church Teaching, and whom the Holy Office said whose opinions can be trusted by all confessors as a sure conclusion. as you so nicely described him, obviously contradicts his own teachings on BOD.

 
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#35
Okay, do you say you are a Catholic?  You seem to have an apt name on this forum.  I tell you what, get yourself named a Doctor of the Church, Mr. Stubborn, and I will begin to trust your opinion, more than whom God has raised to Doctor of His Church.  Will I trust God, or "Stubborn"?  That is the issue.  Of couse, if you are a traditionalist type of the SSPX bent, or similar, then you have torn assunder the principles of who we are to believe, and who has the power to exact the Faith from whom.  Is it Stubborn exacting the Faith from Doctor Liguori?

Farebetter.
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#36
What? You didn't read what the Dr taught or does it disagree with your opinion because of what it says?
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#37
(08-20-2011, 01:41 PM)charlesh Wrote: This is the passage I mentioned from Pope St. Pius X's catechism:

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

Fr. Meuller would call that a heresy in the 1880's. I don't think anybody would call Pope Pius X a heretic today. So how do Feeney, Coulombe, et al. treat this passage of Pius X?

I've never heard of this being a forgery or fabrication. The priest who referred me to the Catechism of St. Pius X noted for me that the hypothetical individual above isn't saved. He's "on the way of salvation." He compared it to St. Thomas's description of the person raised by wolves still having a shot at heaven. Also, note that Cantate Domino only requires a person to be in the "bosom" of the Church, which is analogous here to the soul of the Church. That's how it was put to me.

I admit that I do believe in BoD and am familiar with the arguments against it.
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#38
(10-03-2011, 11:42 AM)Stubborn Wrote: What? You didn't read what the Dr taught or does it disagree with your opinion because of what it says?

Your being puerile.  I don't put up with it.  I leave you with your stubbornness, and I hope you are as stubborn in your prayers to Our Lady, as you are as stubborn in what Doctor of the Church liguori would charge "Heresy against the Faith." now, St. Alphonsus doesn't see a contradiction, and the Holy Office doesn't see a contradiction, and Pius Ix doesn't see a contraction, but Mr Stubnorn does.  Who wants to weigh these scales?
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#39
Moreover I think this is a reflection of a bigger traditionalist problem.  Trade love a man who stands up against Rome Nd popes and the Vatican in the face of some perceived heresy, someone like a Fr. Feeney would be, or like lefebvre.  They think it is a heroic deed.  I think it is an effeminate syncretism because I believe the Pope, and Rome is infallible in Faith, Morals, and official discipline in the Sacred Canons, and liturgy.  I believe that if St. alphonsus was erroneous in teaching something that would be so dangerous to the Faith as desire of baptism in the face of the "stubborn contradiction interpretation," then he would have not been declared a saint, and ha, he would not have been raised to a supreme doctor of the Church. Puh lease.

Our lady, Seat of wisdom...
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#40
(10-04-2011, 10:05 AM)jordanawef Wrote:
(10-03-2011, 11:42 AM)Stubborn Wrote: What? You didn't read what the Dr taught or does it disagree with your opinion because of what it says?

Your being puerile.  I don't put up with it.  I leave you with your stubbornness, and I hope you are as stubborn in your prayers to Our Lady, as you are as stubborn in what Doctor of the Church liguori would charge "Heresy against the Faith." now, St. Alphonsus doesn't see a contradiction, and the Holy Office doesn't see a contradiction, and Pius Ix doesn't see a contraction, but Mr Stubnorn does.  Who wants to weigh these scales?

You're being ignorant.
Read what was written by St. Alphonsus and criticize him if that's what makes you feel better - all I am doing is pointing out the obvious - if you can't understand that, blame your own ignorance. 
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