Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
#41
(10-04-2011, 10:18 AM)jordanawef Wrote: Moreover I think this is a reflection of a bigger traditionalist problem.  Trade love a man who stands up against Rome Nd popes and the Vatican in the face of some perceived heresy, someone like a Fr. Feeney would be, or like lefebvre.  They think it is a heroic deed.  I think it is an effeminate syncretism because I believe the Pope, and Rome is infallible in Faith, Morals, and official discipline in the Sacred Canons, and liturgy.  I believe that if St. alphonsus was erroneous in teaching something that would be so dangerous to the Faith as desire of baptism in the face of the "stubborn contradiction interpretation," then he would have not been declared a saint, and ha, he would not have been raised to a supreme doctor of the Church. Puh lease.

Our lady, Seat of wisdom...

Again, you have no idea what you are even saying.
Go find out what St. Thomas Aquinas taught regarding the Immaculate Conception - according to you, he is a heretic, not a saint.

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#42
(10-04-2011, 10:18 AM)jordanawef Wrote: Moreover I think this is a reflection of a bigger traditionalist problem.  Trade love a man who stands up against Rome Nd popes and the Vatican in the face of some perceived heresy, someone like a Fr. Feeney would be, or like lefebvre.  They think it is a heroic deed.  I think it is an effeminate syncretism because I believe the Pope, and Rome is infallible in Faith, Morals, and official discipline in the Sacred Canons, and liturgy.  I believe that if St. alphonsus was erroneous in teaching something that would be so dangerous to the Faith as desire of baptism in the face of the "stubborn contradiction interpretation," then he would have not been declared a saint, and ha, he would not have been raised to a supreme doctor of the Church. Puh lease.

Our lady, Seat of wisdom...

According to you, St. Augustine is also a heretic......

From St. Augustine's book: "Retractions" - 400: Or how can they fail to be saved by water… the same unity of the ark saved them, in which no one has been saved except by water. For Cyprian himself says, The Lord is able of His mercy to grant pardon, and not to sever from the gifts of His Church those who, being in all simplicity admitted to the Church, have fallen asleep within her pale.‘ If not by water, how in the ark? If not in the ark, how in the Church? But if in the Church, certainly in the ark; and if in the ark, certainly by water. …nor can they be said to have been otherwise saved in the ark except by water.

St. Augustine, 416: How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their deathbeds? And how many sincere catechumens die unbaptized, and are thus lost forever! ...When we shall have come into the sight of God, we shall behold the equity of His justice. At that time, no one will say: Why did He help this one and not that one? Why was this man led by God‘s direction to be baptized, while that man, though he lived properly as a catechumen, was killed in a sudden disaster and not baptized? Look for rewards, and you will find nothing but punishments! …For of what use would repentance be, even before Baptism, if Baptism did not follow? ...No matter what progress a catechumen may make, he still carries the burden of iniquity, and it is not taken away until he has been baptized.


According to you, Our Lord Himself is a heretic too hey? John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Try hard to learn what you are talking about before attempts at unwarranted insults from now on.
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#43
Awesome example of BOD scenario - start at about the 29 second mark.

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#44
(10-09-2011, 04:05 AM)Cooler King Wrote:Stubborn. I agree!
Remember that everyone has a chance for salvation!
All abrahamic faiths lead to heaven and have their share (some) of salvific graces.  Christianity subsists in the Catholic Church. Of course, the extraordinary means for salvation are many. All the salvific graces rest within the Catholic Church.
So yes, I agree.

This is getting a little old.

If you are truly GottmitunsAlex, you should be careful. The members of this forum are not the only ones who read it and are affected by it. It is certain that there are some who stumble across this forum accidentally, and it may be their only opportunity to be exposed to true Catholic teaching. We should be careful not to confuse them with novel doctrines that didn't exist pre-Vatican II.
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#45
(10-09-2011, 04:26 AM)Cooler King Wrote:
(10-09-2011, 04:21 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(10-09-2011, 04:05 AM)Cooler King Wrote:Stubborn. I agree!
Remember that everyone has a chance for salvation!
All abrahamic faiths lead to heaven and have their share (some) of salvific graces.  Christianity subsists in the Catholic Church. Of course, the extraordinary means for salvation are many. All the salvific graces rest within the Catholic Church.
So yes, I agree.

This is getting a little old.

If you are truly GottmitunsAlex, you should be careful. The members of this forum are not the only ones who read it and are affected by it. It is certain that there are some who stumble across this forum accidentally, and it may be their only opportunity to be exposed to true Catholic teaching. We should be careful not to confuse them with novel doctrines that didn't exist pre-Vatican II.
Might I inquire as to what Catholic Mass you attend? (FSSP SSPX CMRI)

None of the above.

Might I inquire as to whether you are or are not the above-mentioned poster?
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#46
"The dogma of the Faith, will always be preserved in Portugal."  -Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima
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#47
(10-04-2011, 02:12 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(10-04-2011, 10:18 AM)jordanawef Wrote: Moreover I think this is a reflection of a bigger traditionalist problem.  Trade love a man who stands up against Rome Nd popes and the Vatican in the face of some perceived heresy, someone like a Fr. Feeney would be, or like lefebvre.  They think it is a heroic deed.  I think it is an effeminate syncretism because I believe the Pope, and Rome is infallible in Faith, Morals, and official discipline in the Sacred Canons, and liturgy.  I believe that if St. alphonsus was erroneous in teaching something that would be so dangerous to the Faith as desire of baptism in the face of the "stubborn contradiction interpretation," then he would have not been declared a saint, and ha, he would not have been raised to a supreme doctor of the Church. Puh lease.

Our lady, Seat of wisdom...

Again, you have no idea what you are even saying.
Go find out what St. Thomas Aquinas taught regarding the Immaculate Conception - according to you, he is a heretic, not a saint.

No, no, according to you according to me St Thomas and Augustine are heretics, again, it is passing through you.  I stand with the countless theologians who are formed on the first principles of interpretation of tradition and faith, something which don't seem to know exists, theologians who were formed in our seminaries.  I am a follower of the theological manuals that were used to form priests for centuries, wherein an over arching congruism of Faith is to be found, and not a hodge-podge denziger agglomeration of my fancy.  I say that alphsosnsus does not conflict with agustine Thomas Rome throughout all ages Trent, and unanimous opinion of theologians, and the rest.  You stand with feeney, and the dimond brothers.  I don't have animosity towards you, I just know with the certainty of Faith that you hold a heretical view that is due to under exposure to church teaching, and over exposure to Internet amateurs.

Here is a challenge for you:

Go to the library of your nearest pontifical university, go to their theology section, and look for the manuals, these were used to train priests from about 1770,s till about 1950's.  You will find "desire of baptism" taught in all.  Then, don't stop there.  Look in the catechisms prior to the manuals, because they were the Pre-cursor to the manual, and you will find the same thing.  Then, in some universities, you can find commentaries on the council of Trent, which were written by men who were there, and who would know, and look at the commentaries on the chapter on justification.  If you make it to Trent, you won't need to go earlier, i would hope.  Feeneyism, looking historically over all these sacrosanct literatures (this is where the Faith is found mind you, in these places inname above), is a recent invention and novelty.  Fr. Feeney, if I understand it, was not even a graduate level theologian.

Rome sees no contradiction in all of this, and neither do I.  You though, do.  Do what I said above, and you won't any longer.
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#48
(10-09-2011, 02:52 PM)jordanawef Wrote: No, no, according to you according to me St Thomas and Augustine are heretics, again, it is passing through you.  I stand with the countless theologians who are formed on the first principles of interpretation of tradition and faith, something which don't seem to know exists, theologians who were formed in our seminaries.  I am a follower of the theological manuals that were used to form priests for centuries, wherein an over arching congruism of Faith is to be found, and not a hodge-podge denziger agglomeration of my fancy.  I say that alphsosnsus does not conflict with agustine Thomas Rome throughout all ages Trent, and unanimous opinion of theologians, and the rest.  You stand with feeney, and the dimond brothers.  I don't have animosity towards you, I just know with the certainty of Faith that you hold a heretical view that is due to under exposure to church teaching, and over exposure to Internet amateurs.

I already posted where St. Alphonsus *clearly* contradicts his own teaching on BOD - your reply was that it sounded "subversive". You then accuse me of heresy and being puerile.  In the past, I posted St. Ignatius actually retracting his teaching from his book "Retractiones", as well as St. Thomas contradicting his teaching on BOD. All the books in the world can never change those contradictions. That is why I posted them - to point out that the very saints that everyone quotes in support of salvation through desire have contradicted themselves.

But seems folks are not out for the truth as much as they are out to be happy salvation can be found outside the Church.

FYI, no one who echoes the infallible teaching is a heretic - just FYI.


(10-09-2011, 02:52 PM)jordanawef Wrote: Here is a challenge for you:

Go to the library of your nearest pontifical university, go to their theology section, and look for the manuals, these were used to train priests from about 1770,s till about 1950's.  You will find "desire of baptism" taught in all.  Then, don't stop there.  Look in the catechisms prior to the manuals, because they were the Pre-cursor to the manual, and you will find the same thing.  Then, in some universities, you can find commentaries on the council of Trent, which were written by men who were there, and who would know, and look at the commentaries on the chapter on justification.  If you make it to Trent, you won't need to go earlier, i would hope.  Feeneyism, looking historically over all these sacrosanct literatures (this is where the Faith is found mind you, in these places inname above), is a recent invention and novelty.  Fr. Feeney, if I understand it, was not even a graduate level theologian.

Rome sees no contradiction in all of this, and neither do I.  You though, do.  Do what I said above, and you won't any longer.

Pontifical university? Gimme a break.

I challenge you to something much more achievable ----- post a Poll here on FE with the question: Is there salvation outside the Church?
Voters get to have two choices: 1) YES, 2) NO

The challenge is for you to explain to all the YES votes how they do not contradict the Dogma: "Outside the Church there is no salvation".
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#49
Rather than debate this for the umpteenth time, I'll simply express my agreement with my fellow manualist, jordanawef.  ;)
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#50
(10-14-2011, 01:42 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Rather than debate this for the umpteenth time, I'll simply express my agreement with my fellow manualist, jordanawef.  ;)

Well, feel free to explain how No Salvation outside the Church does not mean what it says please.

BTW, since EENSers already have heard all the teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium, can you please dispute the claims of EENSers by using the same teachings they use - namely, infallible proclamations and Our Lord's own command. Thanks!
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