Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
#51
(10-14-2011, 05:07 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(10-14-2011, 01:42 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Rather than debate this for the umpteenth time, I'll simply express my agreement with my fellow manualist, jordanawef.  ;)

Well, feel free to explain how No Salvation outside the Church does not mean what it says please.

BTW, since EENSers already have heard all the teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium, can you please dispute the claims of EENSers by using the same teachings they use - namely, infallible proclamations and Our Lord's own command. Thanks!

Well, I think it's important to keep in mind that the question of baptism of desire does not concern salvation outside the Church; rather, it is related to the question of who is actually in the Church. It proposes that there might be some we think to be outside the Church who really aren't because of circumstances controlled and known only by God.
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#52
(10-14-2011, 11:07 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(10-14-2011, 05:07 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(10-14-2011, 01:42 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Rather than debate this for the umpteenth time, I'll simply express my agreement with my fellow manualist, jordanawef.  ;)

Well, feel free to explain how No Salvation outside the Church does not mean what it says please.

BTW, since EENSers already have heard all the teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium, can you please dispute the claims of EENSers by using the same teachings they use - namely, infallible proclamations and Our Lord's own command. Thanks!

Well, I think it's important to keep in mind that the question of baptism of desire does not concern salvation outside the Church; rather, it is related to the question of who is actually in the Church. It proposes that there might be some we think to be outside the Church who really aren't because of circumstances controlled and known only by God.

I agree - it proposes or assumes that some are not inwardly outside the Church.
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#53
Here's what St. Augustine sayas on baptism of desire:

"For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of baptism. For He who said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God," made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven;" and in another place, "Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it." And this explains the verse, "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." For what is more precious than a death by which a man's sins are all forgiven, and his merits increased an hundred fold?" ~ St. Augustine of Hippo, The City of God.
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#54

Here's what else St. Augustine sayas on baptism of desire:

From St. Augustine's book: "Retractions" - 400: Or how can they fail to be saved by water… the same unity of the ark saved them, in which no one has been saved except by water. For Cyprian himself says, The Lord is able of His mercy to grant pardon, and not to sever from the gifts of His Church those who, being in all simplicity admitted to the Church, have fallen asleep within her pale.‘ If not by water, how in the ark? If not in the ark, how in the Church? But if in the Church, certainly in the ark; and if in the ark, certainly by water. …nor can they be said to have been otherwise saved in the ark except by water.

St. Augustine, 416: How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their deathbeds? And how many sincere catechumens die unbaptized, and are thus lost forever! ...When we shall have come into the sight of God, we shall behold the equity of His justice. At that time, no one will say: Why did He help this one and not that one? Why was this man led by God‘s direction to be baptized, while that man, though he lived properly as a catechumen, was killed in a sudden disaster and not baptized? Look for rewards, and you will find nothing but punishments! …For of what use would repentance be, even before Baptism, if Baptism did not follow? ...No matter what progress a catechumen may make, he still carries the burden of iniquity, and it is not taken away until he has been baptized.
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#55
Quoting the Saints on this matter, or any other fallible source is a waist of time. The Council of Trent taught in Canon V of the Canons on the Sacrament of Baptism: "If anyone says that Baptism is unnecessary for salvation, let him be anathema."

Canon II of the same Canons on the Sacrament of Baptism also condemns so-called "Baptism of Desire". It states infallibly: "If anyone says that water is not necessary for Baptism, and therefore twists our Lord's words, 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost' into some sort of METAPHORE, let him be anathema."

"Baptism of Desire" is a classic metaphore. Those who maintain this belief think that it somehow brings one into the Church. Since Baptism is the Sacrament of INITIATION, these people give this idea the metaphorical name of "Baptism". This is classic metaphorical speech. If I told you that someone was a "snake in the grass" because he's devious, I would be using metaphorical language.

"Baptism of Desire" was held by a handfull of Saints. Likewise it was rejected by many more. St. Alphonsus de Liguori believed it was a Dogma. This confusion is precisely WHY we do not rely on the fallible sources for discerning the Catholic Faith. It is the sole purpose of clearing up the confusion that Holy Mother Church defines doctrines in a clear, solemn, and infallibe manner. Otherwise, we'd be no better off than the Protestants, who have been quibbling over a single word for 400 years.



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#56
(10-19-2011, 07:54 AM)Stubborn Wrote: Here's what else St. Augustine sayas on baptism of desire:

From St. Augustine's book: "Retractions" - 400: Or how can they fail to be saved by water… the same unity of the ark saved them, in which no one has been saved except by water. For Cyprian himself says, The Lord is able of His mercy to grant pardon, and not to sever from the gifts of His Church those who, being in all simplicity admitted to the Church, have fallen asleep within her pale.‘ If not by water, how in the ark? If not in the ark, how in the Church? But if in the Church, certainly in the ark; and if in the ark, certainly by water. …nor can they be said to have been otherwise saved in the ark except by water.

St. Augustine, 416: How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their deathbeds? And how many sincere catechumens die unbaptized, and are thus lost forever! ...When we shall have come into the sight of God, we shall behold the equity of His justice. At that time, no one will say: Why did He help this one and not that one? Why was this man led by God‘s direction to be baptized, while that man, though he lived properly as a catechumen, was killed in a sudden disaster and not baptized? Look for rewards, and you will find nothing but punishments! …For of what use would repentance be, even before Baptism, if Baptism did not follow? ...No matter what progress a catechumen may make, he still carries the burden of iniquity, and it is not taken away until he has been baptized.

:amen:

This was his final position on the matter.
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#57
(11-05-2011, 11:24 PM)sedevacantist Wrote: Quoting the Saints on this matter, or any other fallible source is a waist of time. The Council of Trent taught in Canon V of the Canons on the Sacrament of Baptism: "If anyone says that Baptism is unnecessary for salvation, let him be anathema."

Canon II of the same Canons on the Sacrament of Baptism also condemns so-called "Baptism of Desire". It states infallibly: "If anyone says that water is not necessary for Baptism, and therefore twists our Lord's words, 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost' into some sort of METAPHORE, let him be anathema."

"Baptism of Desire" is a classic metaphore. Those who maintain this belief think that it somehow brings one into the Church. Since Baptism is the Sacrament of INITIATION, these people give this idea the metaphorical name of "Baptism". This is classic metaphorical speech. If I told you that someone was a "snake in the grass" because he's devious, I would be using metaphorical language.

"Baptism of Desire" was held by a handfull of Saints. Likewise it was rejected by many more. St. Alphonsus de Liguori believed it was a Dogma. This confusion is precisely WHY we do not rely on the fallible sources for discerning the Catholic Faith. It is the sole purpose of clearing up the confusion that Holy Mother Church defines doctrines in a clear, solemn, and infallibe manner. Otherwise, we'd be no better off than the Protestants, who have been quibbling over a single word for 400 years.

Baptism is indeed necessary for salvation. No doubt about that. But does the council of Trent specify what type of Baptism is necessary for Baptism? It does say that water is necessary for baptism but that 'baptism' is water baptism. It means that water baptism, the usual form of baptism must use water. But other forms of baptism, the Baptism of Desire and Baptism by blood are valid and have the same efficacy as water baptism.

If we take the Council of Trent's words to mean that only water baptism is the only baptism then that would make the Council of Trent as a council that ignores all the teachings of its Doctors, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. Note also that of we say that only water baptism is the only baptism, we also say that all the  martyrs, who were not baptized, due to an extraordinary circumstance, are not saved. (No baptism by blood).

We all agree that God is love, and God is good. and He loves all humans. God is merciful, compassionate and understanding. Also, God is omniscient, He knows what we believe, hat we desire and what believe. So let me ask: How can all-loving God not save an unbaptized man who firmly has faith in Jesus Christ and practices charity but unfortunately could not receive baptism due to a reason that is beyond his control? Take for example, people who are receiving (and eventually accept and practice) the teachings of Jesus Christ but their teacher (a priest) was martyred for the faith before they could be baptized. They want to be baptized but because of something they cannot control, the just could not receive baptism. Should no priest come again, are these genuine believers not saved?

If God is truly merciful, all-loving, all-good and understanding, He would, by definition of Him being God, save these people. He understands that the people wanted to be baptized, it was not the people's fault that they couldn't be baptized. Why would God condemn, to eternal damnation, people who did not do anything wrong and were only victims of circumstance? God condemns those who desire to be condemned. God damns those who by their free will and there own decisions (not by circumstances that they absolutely could not control) choose not to be baptized and choose to commit mortal sins against God.

It is because God is all-loving and good that the Baptism of Desire and the Baptism of Desire exists. That people, who genuinely love God but could not be baptized due to reasons they cannot control, can and are Baptized by their desire. God is omnipotent. He is not bound to any laws or prevented to love a person due to sin. God will of course save those who truly desire to be saved, God forgives those who want to be forgiven,  even if those saved are separated him, for no sin is beyond the mercy of God, no soul is beyond his redemptive power. The only people who wont be saved are those who do not desire to be saved for God respects their decision not to be saved.

Rejoice and be glad! God is all-loving and good! Be joyful, many of our Christian brothers and sisters are saved because of Baptism of Desire and Baptism and Blood!

+ Benedicat Nobis Deus +
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#58
A wonderful depiction of BOD.



There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the sceptics. - Fr. Feeney's Bread of Life
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#59
(11-10-2011, 08:39 AM)LorenzoMdeVera Wrote: Baptism is indeed necessary for salvation. No doubt about that. But does the council of Trent specify what type of Baptism is necessary for Baptism? It does say that water is necessary for baptism but that 'baptism' is water baptism. It means that water baptism, the usual form of baptism must use water. But other forms of baptism, the Baptism of Desire and Baptism by blood are valid and have the same efficacy as water baptism.

I agree with some of your post.

But Trent isn't exactly saying "water baptism requires water" - that would be trite and redundant.  Rather it is saying that the SACRAMENT of baptism requires true and natural water, not wine or milk, which would "represent" water by way of a kind of metaphor.  Baptism of desire is not the SACRAMENT,  and of course doesn't need water: this doesn't need to be said. It would be nonsense to say "Baptism of Desire" requires water.

The Sacrament of Baptism is the one baptism in the primary sense. Baptism of desire is called baptism only BECAUSE it is a DESIRE (as accepted by God, nothing less) for the SACRAMENT, when God permits the sacrament to be impossible for a man.   It is called baptism in a secondary sense only.

Baptism of Desire also does not have the full efficacy of the Sacrament of Baptism.  It does not make a man a Catholic.  Without being a Catholic, a man cannot receive the Sacraments and their grace, and is extremely likely to fall into mortal sin and lose even the initial efficacy (Sanctifying Grace) of Baptism of Desire itself.  (However, if a man dies in the state of Sanctifying Grace he is supernaturally pleasing to God, and God will save him)

Baptism of desire is a reality, but preaching it to modernists or to heathens is extremely dangerous .It is rather like preaching to a congregation of  manifest sinners that God in His extraordinary mercy may bring a death bed conversion.  It is true (and can't be denied) but very unlikely (as we must view it) and not what they most need to hear.
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#60
I would agree with Doce Me's above post, but I would substitute his use of Sanctifying Grace for Justifying Grace, which includes Sanctifying Grace, but also speaks more properly to what the central tenet of Baptism of Desire is for, and that is an extra-sacramental Justification (keeping the Divine precept of necessity to receive that Sacrament of Initiation in tact, when it becomes possible for it to be had, ASAP).
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