Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
#74
(11-12-2011, 02:08 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(11-12-2011, 12:52 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: With all due respect, you are very subtly changing the topic of discussion.

This discussion does not concern an "infallible teaching declaring salvation to the unbaptized just". This discussion concerns Fr. Feeney's views on justification.

These are the facts:

(1) Justification is, effectively, the state of sanctifying grace. (Council of Trent)

For #1, please post where Trent says this.

Stubborn, if you are even going so far as to question what the state of justification is, then how can you have the faintest understanding of what this issue is all about? In order to understanding the baptism of desire discussion, please start by studying the entire sixth session of the Council of Trent--not by reading it with a certain bias, but by understanding what it is actually saying.

I have watched you debate this issue before, and I am not convinced that you are as objective in this discussion as you think you are. I used to flirt with the teachings of Fr. Feeney until a deeper study into the issue revealed that I knew next to nothing about what the Church actually teaches concerning baptism and what baptism of desire actually is. Fr. Feeney overreacted to a liberal error by overcorrecting for it; many well-intentioned people do this, but it is not the appropriate response. He obsessed over his private understanding of the dogma so much in reaction to the liberals that he worked himself in a giant theological mess. The Church summoned him to try to sort out this mess he had gotten himself into, but, as we know, he never answered that call (despite the fact that he said in his book that it was absolutely necessary to obey the pope in all things in order to remain a Catholic.) You say, "But he was sick." Fr. Feeney himself said, however, that the reason he wouldn't go was because he didn't believe he would receive a fair hearing.

In my study of baptism of desire, I learned a lot of things along the way, such as the various different degrees of necessity, the ability of God to act outside of the visible signs of the sacraments, and how baptism of desire actually reconciles the Church's teachings concerning the effect of making a perfect act of love for God, which is a teaching that is rarely even brought up in these discussions. In the end, I didn't let anyone change my mind; my studies ended up changing my own mind about it because I was absolutely objective about it. It wasn't because I was duped into Modernist thinking, as you may be thinking. Anyone who knows me knows how wary I am of Modernist thought. But the fact of the matter is that, in order to reject baptism of desire, you have to (1) mince a whole lot of Church documents and (2) accuse a whole lot of saints, doctors, and scholastics of being influenced by Modernism or of even being Modernists themselves. . . even before the heresy was around. The Feeney view engages in private interpretation of Church dogma like the Protestants do of Scripture and overlooks fine nuances of the Church's teachings on grace, baptism, and perfect charity, which are much broader subjects than the one canon that Fr. Feeney allowed to control his thought to the exclusion of everything else. Whenever there is a discrepancy about what this or that dogma actually means, we should submit to the interpretation of those who have been appointed to speak on behalf of the Church.

No, the justificatory efficacy of desire for baptism is not a dogma of faith, but does carry the note of a sententia fidei proxima, which, in his book Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott defines as "a doctrine that is regarded by theologians as a truth of revelation but has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church." As a result, as uncomfortable it is to acknowledge, one is not permitted to deny this teaching.

If you are open to the possibility of being wrong, then there could be some use in discussing it, but from what I've seen of your discussions of the topic here, you are not open to the possibility of being wrong. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to get into an involved discussion on the topic if you are unwilling to consider the possibility that you have misunderstood what the Church actually teaches about this. So, for the time-being, I think I'm just going to have to let it go. I have no hard feelings for you whatsoever, I really think you should reflect upon yourself and try to understand the fullness of what the Church teachings concerning (1) making a perfect act of love for God, (2) why the external signs of the sacraments exist in the first place, (3) the means by which God's can communicate grace, (4) and what exactly the Church was talking about when the Council of Trent said that the desire for the waters of baptism, motivated by perfect charity, could justify a soul without him even knowing it. Pray for understanding--to be guided by a sincere yearning for Truth no matter what--and let God do the rest.

Pax tecum.
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Messages In This Thread
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jbcatholic - 08-18-2011, 02:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Scriptorium - 08-18-2011, 03:23 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jbcatholic - 08-18-2011, 03:41 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 08-18-2011, 03:44 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Scriptorium - 08-18-2011, 03:59 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-18-2011, 05:45 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by JoniCath - 08-18-2011, 07:06 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-18-2011, 08:25 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by SouthpawLink - 08-18-2011, 08:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 08-18-2011, 09:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-19-2011, 03:37 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-19-2011, 09:10 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by UnamSanctam - 08-19-2011, 09:15 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 02:10 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 02:34 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 11:15 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 01:41 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 05:53 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by anthony - 08-20-2011, 08:00 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 08:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 09:06 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 09:13 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Louis_Martin - 08-20-2011, 09:15 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 09:15 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 11:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 11:58 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-21-2011, 12:08 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-21-2011, 12:49 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by vtcatholic - 09-24-2011, 01:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-02-2011, 05:32 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-02-2011, 07:36 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by OldMan - 10-02-2011, 10:01 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-02-2011, 11:25 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-03-2011, 06:11 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-03-2011, 11:35 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-03-2011, 11:42 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by McNider - 10-03-2011, 04:27 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-04-2011, 10:05 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-04-2011, 10:18 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 02:10 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 02:21 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 03:02 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 10-09-2011, 04:21 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 10-09-2011, 04:33 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-09-2011, 02:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-14-2011, 07:44 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by SouthpawLink - 10-14-2011, 01:42 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-14-2011, 05:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 10-14-2011, 11:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-18-2011, 07:37 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-19-2011, 07:54 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Vetus Ordo - 11-08-2011, 10:27 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-10-2011, 08:47 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-10-2011, 05:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-10-2011, 11:44 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-10-2011, 11:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-11-2011, 07:11 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by JM3 - 11-11-2011, 02:02 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-11-2011, 03:20 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-11-2011, 11:24 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-11-2011, 11:30 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-11-2011, 11:35 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-11-2011, 11:42 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-12-2011, 05:00 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-12-2011, 09:54 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-12-2011, 12:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-12-2011, 02:08 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-13-2011, 12:05 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 01:15 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-13-2011, 01:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 02:00 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-13-2011, 02:06 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-13-2011, 02:13 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 03:02 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 03:16 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-14-2011, 01:13 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-14-2011, 06:48 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-14-2011, 08:15 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-21-2011, 08:50 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-23-2011, 01:32 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-23-2011, 06:31 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-24-2011, 12:04 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-29-2011, 04:00 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-29-2011, 04:04 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-29-2011, 11:59 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-30-2011, 07:55 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-30-2011, 09:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 12-01-2011, 10:46 AM



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