Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
#78
(11-13-2011, 12:05 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(11-12-2011, 02:08 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(11-12-2011, 12:52 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: With all due respect, you are very subtly changing the topic of discussion.

This discussion does not concern an "infallible teaching declaring salvation to the unbaptized just". This discussion concerns Fr. Feeney's views on justification.

These are the facts:

(1) Justification is, effectively, the state of sanctifying grace. (Council of Trent)

For #1, please post where Trent says this.

Stubborn, if you are even going so far as to question what the state of justification is, then how can you have the faintest understanding of what this issue is all about? In order to understanding the baptism of desire discussion, please start by studying the entire sixth session of the Council of Trent--not by reading it with a certain bias, but by understanding what it is actually saying.


INPEFESS, first I want to tell you that I, and most others here I am sure, respect your thoughts immensely - I am not a very good writer by any stretch of the imagination - certainly way, way below par compared to you, so please do not read disrespect toward you in my post and I apologize right now if at times I come across that way - it is certainly not done on purpose. 

I have studied the entire sixth session of the Council of Trent and can say that nowhere does it teach that one who is unbaptized can attain salvation. If I am wrong, please show me what it is actually saying.

I'll post two teachings from Trent's 6th session below - that should be enough I think, but if not, please post the pertinent information that you say I am missing or denying - - I am not trying to deny the truth and will happily thank you abundantly if you will point out the thing you believe I am missing or denying!


Sixth Session, Capter VII
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified

Now I am very interested to see if Trent turns around and contradicts what they just said above. I have never been able to find Trent contradicting itself, in fact Trent agrees precisely with every other "official" infallibly declared statement on this subject - -  but in case I am either not reading this correctly or Trent does contradict themselves, please show me.

Here is yet another teaching from Trent's 6th session:

CHAPTER XIV. (Is speaking about those who are already baptized)
On the fallen, and their restoration. (Note it says their "restoration", not their initiation)

As regards those who, by sin, have fallen from the received grace of Justification, they may be again justified, when, God exciting them, through the sacrament of Penance they shall have attained to the recovery...................Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian, after his fall, is very different from that at (his) baptism;and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of the said sins,-at least in desire, and to be made in its season,-and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment,-which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament,-but for the temporal punishment, which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who, ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, have grieved the Holy Spirit, and have not feared to violate the temple of God. Concerning which penitence it is written; Be mindful whence thou art fallen; do penance.......


FWIW, I am not seeking to be right, I am seeking the truth. I have found absolute clear consistency in all infallible truths and have found inconsistency and contradictory teachings from the "Ordinary Magisterium"  i.e. Doctors, Theologians and Saints etc (as I have already posted their contradictions) on this subject.


Chapter IV (Latin)
“Quae quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto fieri non potest, sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiirtu Sancto, non potest introire in regnum Dei.

Chapter IV (English)
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

For the record, I do not know Latin, but "voto" sure looks like the word "Vow" and not "Desire" to me. So I am of the opinion that there has been a mistranslation of the canons.  But I do not believe one necessarily needs to know Latin to know that or the desire thereof in the context of the canon makes no sense in light of the Scripture at the end of the canon. This is something (using the context of a sentence) I think most of us learned in the 3rd or 4th grade. Again, if I am not reading it correctly, please correct me. I fail to be able to reason out how one must be born again of water while at the same time stating the mere desire of it suffices - I also cannot understand how anyone can reason that out.


(11-13-2011, 12:05 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: I have watched you debate this issue before, and I am not convinced that you are as objective in this discussion as you think you are. I used to flirt with the teachings of Fr. Feeney until a deeper study into the issue revealed that I knew next to nothing about what the Church actually teaches concerning baptism and what baptism of desire actually is. Fr. Feeney overreacted to a liberal error by overcorrecting for it; many well-intentioned people do this, but it is not the appropriate response. He obsessed over his private understanding of the dogma so much in reaction to the liberals that he worked himself in a giant theological mess. The Church summoned him to try to sort out this mess he had gotten himself into, but, as we know, he never answered that call (despite the fact that he said in his book that it was absolutely necessary to obey the pope in all things in order to remain a Catholic.) You say, "But he was sick." Fr. Feeney himself said, however, that the reason he wouldn't go was because he didn't believe he would receive a fair hearing.

I do not recall ever saying he did not go because he was sick, if I did then I was wrong and apologize. The reason he did not go was because he was afraid of the scandal that would befall the SBC in his absence if he were to leave in the midst of the "Boston Heresy Case". He most likely foresaw them shunting him off into the world of "some place where he would not be heard from" - similar to what they did to that priest in El Paso recently and is the same thing that was perpetrated on many good priests after V2.

BTW, The Archbishop who was the instrumental cause of the whole "Boston Heresy Case" and everything else against Fr. Feeney  was Archbishop Richard James Cushing. According to wikepedia, At the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965) Cushing played a vital role in drafting Nostra Aetate, the document that officially absolved the Jews of deicide charge.

Nice guy hey? Gives a little bit of insight as to what Fr. was up against even back then.

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Messages In This Thread
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jbcatholic - 08-18-2011, 02:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Scriptorium - 08-18-2011, 03:23 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jbcatholic - 08-18-2011, 03:41 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 08-18-2011, 03:44 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Scriptorium - 08-18-2011, 03:59 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-18-2011, 05:45 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by JoniCath - 08-18-2011, 07:06 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-18-2011, 08:25 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by SouthpawLink - 08-18-2011, 08:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 08-18-2011, 09:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-19-2011, 03:37 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-19-2011, 09:10 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by UnamSanctam - 08-19-2011, 09:15 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 02:10 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 02:34 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 11:15 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 01:41 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 05:53 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by anthony - 08-20-2011, 08:00 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 08:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 09:06 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 09:13 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Louis_Martin - 08-20-2011, 09:15 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 09:15 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 11:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 11:58 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-21-2011, 12:08 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-21-2011, 12:49 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by vtcatholic - 09-24-2011, 01:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-02-2011, 05:32 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-02-2011, 07:36 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by OldMan - 10-02-2011, 10:01 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-02-2011, 11:25 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-03-2011, 06:11 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-03-2011, 11:35 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-03-2011, 11:42 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by McNider - 10-03-2011, 04:27 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-04-2011, 10:05 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-04-2011, 10:18 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 02:10 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 02:21 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 03:02 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 10-09-2011, 04:21 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 10-09-2011, 04:33 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-09-2011, 02:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-14-2011, 07:44 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by SouthpawLink - 10-14-2011, 01:42 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-14-2011, 05:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 10-14-2011, 11:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-18-2011, 07:37 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-19-2011, 07:54 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Vetus Ordo - 11-08-2011, 10:27 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-10-2011, 08:47 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-10-2011, 05:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-10-2011, 11:44 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-10-2011, 11:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-11-2011, 07:11 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by JM3 - 11-11-2011, 02:02 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-11-2011, 03:20 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-11-2011, 11:24 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-11-2011, 11:30 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-11-2011, 11:35 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-11-2011, 11:42 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-12-2011, 05:00 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-12-2011, 09:54 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-12-2011, 12:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-12-2011, 02:08 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-13-2011, 12:05 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 01:15 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-13-2011, 01:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 02:00 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-13-2011, 02:06 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-13-2011, 02:13 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 03:02 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 03:16 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-14-2011, 01:13 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-14-2011, 06:48 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-14-2011, 08:15 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-21-2011, 08:50 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-23-2011, 01:32 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-23-2011, 06:31 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-24-2011, 12:04 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-29-2011, 04:00 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-29-2011, 04:04 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-29-2011, 11:59 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-30-2011, 07:55 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-30-2011, 09:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 12-01-2011, 10:46 AM



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