Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
#88
(11-14-2011, 08:33 AM)LorenzoMdeVera Wrote:
(11-13-2011, 02:06 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(11-13-2011, 10:03 AM)LorenzoMdeVera Wrote: So does this mean that all who were not baptized by water (i.e. the conventional water baptism) are not saved?

Baptism of Desire is not in contradiction with God's aspect of Him being omnipotent. It exists exactly because God is so. God is so powerful that he is able to save those who wish to be saved. These people who desire to be saved are Baptized by their desire to be saved, and therefore be baptized. The are able to be Baptized by their own desire because God knows what is in their hearts and God is so powerful, he can offer them salvation.

Where is Divine Providence in this? Does God not feed the birds of the air when he could easily sustain them without food? Does he not promise that if we seek we will find? If we knock it will be opened? if we ask it will be given to us? Would God deny baptism one who is sincere and in need of Baptism while He feeds the birds?

Why would God make that promise to us at all if when we asked, God only made us believe we were answered when we really weren't?  Why would God make that promise to us at all if when we seeked, we really didn't find but were satisfied that God only led us to believe we found what we were seeking?

If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him? How does BOD agree with this?

I think you get what I'm saying here.

Uhm, about your first paragraph. No, God would not deny one who is sincerely wants to be baptized. Although in His infinite wisdom, and His plan for others, He may will that we not be able to receive Baptism by conventional means. However this does not mean he denies us of baptism. This is possible, precisely because the Baptism of Desire exists. In His great love and wisdom, He gives salvation to those who desire it genuinely. He does not deny baptism to anyone, for one may be baptized by his or her desire when conventional baptism is not available.

Ok, so no one "get's what I'm saying here"..........I'll try to briefly explain:

I am attempting to show that anyone who sincerely desires to be saved (Note: *not* sincerely desires baptism - I find it all but impossible to believe that folks about to die "unexpectedly" have the desire to be baptized on their mind -  but I can agree that they, while being unbaptized, *can* have the desire to be forgiven and saved) and has not yet been baptized, that God will provide the actual sacrament which He made absolutely mandatory for our salvation. This agrees with the doctrine of  Divine Providence.

I think the YouTube I posted beautifully depicts both the "Desire" as well as the Providence of God, who provided what was desired and absolutely needed. God could have miraculously "wooshed away" Ben Hur's thirst, but that is not how God provides. And it wouldn't matter if it were Luther, Henry VIII or Lady Gaga for that matter - if one sincerely desires what God made an absolute necessity for salvation, then God will provide what they desire - miraculously or not. One way or the other, that person will absolutely get the sacrament in this world if they sincerely desire it - *that* is how the Church teaches us that God *always* works.

Divine Providence, as Saint John Damascene calls it, is "The will of God by which all things are ruled by right reason." It leaves no room for chance or for fate. It is the personal act of God in regard to man. This "act" means what it says, IOW, God will provide the sacrament.

Could God grant salvation without the requirement that He Himself  bound all of us too? Yes, He certainly could.
Is the necessity of the sacrament for salvation taught by Trent and other authoritative teachings of the Church? Yes.
Is salvation without the sacrament taught anywhere in Trent or other authoritative teachings of the Church? No, it is not.
Is salvation without the sacrament taught by saints etc. Yes.
Do the saints etc. who taught the typical interpretation of BOD contradict the necessity of the sacrament for salvation taught by Trent and other authoritative teachings of the Church? Yes.

In a nutshell, if BOD means that God will provide the sacrament for all who sincerely desire it before they die, then I believe in BOD. Beyond that, the typical "salvation through desire and without the sacrament" definition of BOD contradicts both Scripture and infallible teachings and I cannot believe it.


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Messages In This Thread
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jbcatholic - 08-18-2011, 02:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Scriptorium - 08-18-2011, 03:23 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jbcatholic - 08-18-2011, 03:41 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 08-18-2011, 03:44 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Scriptorium - 08-18-2011, 03:59 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-18-2011, 05:45 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by JoniCath - 08-18-2011, 07:06 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-18-2011, 08:25 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by SouthpawLink - 08-18-2011, 08:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 08-18-2011, 09:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-19-2011, 03:37 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-19-2011, 09:10 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by UnamSanctam - 08-19-2011, 09:15 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 02:10 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 02:34 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 11:15 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 01:41 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 05:53 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by anthony - 08-20-2011, 08:00 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 08:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 09:06 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by charlesh - 08-20-2011, 09:13 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Louis_Martin - 08-20-2011, 09:15 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 09:15 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-20-2011, 11:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-20-2011, 11:58 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Gregory I - 08-21-2011, 12:08 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 08-21-2011, 12:49 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by vtcatholic - 09-24-2011, 01:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-02-2011, 05:32 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-02-2011, 07:36 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by OldMan - 10-02-2011, 10:01 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-02-2011, 11:25 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-03-2011, 06:11 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-03-2011, 11:35 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-03-2011, 11:42 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by McNider - 10-03-2011, 04:27 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-04-2011, 10:05 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-04-2011, 10:18 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 02:10 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 02:21 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-04-2011, 03:02 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 10-09-2011, 04:21 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 10-09-2011, 04:33 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 10-09-2011, 02:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-14-2011, 07:44 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by SouthpawLink - 10-14-2011, 01:42 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-14-2011, 05:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 10-14-2011, 11:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-18-2011, 07:37 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 10-19-2011, 07:54 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Vetus Ordo - 11-08-2011, 10:27 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-10-2011, 08:47 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-10-2011, 05:07 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-10-2011, 11:44 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-10-2011, 11:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-11-2011, 07:11 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by JM3 - 11-11-2011, 02:02 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-11-2011, 03:20 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-11-2011, 11:24 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-11-2011, 11:30 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by jordanawef - 11-11-2011, 11:35 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-11-2011, 11:42 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-12-2011, 05:00 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-12-2011, 09:54 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-12-2011, 12:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-12-2011, 02:08 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-13-2011, 12:05 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 01:15 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-13-2011, 01:52 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 02:00 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-13-2011, 02:06 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-13-2011, 02:13 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 03:02 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by aquinasg - 11-13-2011, 03:16 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by INPEFESS - 11-14-2011, 01:13 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-14-2011, 06:48 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-14-2011, 08:15 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-21-2011, 08:50 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-23-2011, 01:32 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-23-2011, 06:31 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-24-2011, 12:04 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-29-2011, 04:00 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-29-2011, 04:04 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-29-2011, 11:59 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 11-30-2011, 07:55 AM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Doce Me - 11-30-2011, 09:51 PM
Re: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - by Stubborn - 12-01-2011, 10:46 AM



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