Poll: Which ancient Liturgy do you prefer
You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
13
0%
0 0%
8
0%
0 0%
Total 0 vote(s) 0%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Ancient Liturgy Preference (only respond if you have attended both)
#61
(08-23-2011, 01:07 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(08-22-2011, 11:35 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(08-22-2011, 06:12 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: I hope not.

When holy Communion is distributed under both species to the people, it is easy for the ill-informed to conclude that it is necessary for salvation that the laity receive under both species, or that the whole Christ is not received under either species.

Hogwash.  This has never been an issue in the East.  Do you in the West have difficulty catechizing your faithful?  If people in the West think they need to receive both species in order to receive the Body and Blood, then the only reason is because your Church has failed to catechize them properly.  One could just as easily say that it is bad to only receive under one species because it will make the ill-informed think that receiving both is somehow polluting the Host.  Your concern is both absurd and unrealistic.  Don't hold onto bad tradition because you think people are too stupid to understand, man up and ^&*%ing catechize your laity properly!

Your continuous jabs at the Church are unbelieveable, Melkite.

Unfortunately, you continue to value your "easterness" over your catholicity.

You must admit though, the nationalism overrides catholicity in many members of the Church both east and west. It has always been so I think, that Latins and Greeks tend to look down on one another. I love both. Augustine or Basil, Origen or Tertullian, Athanasius or Ireneus, we're on the same side.
Reply
#62
I have been to both  (including Byzantine and Ukrainian rite masses (Divine Liturgy), as well as Tridentine Latin rite). Both are beautiful and devout.  I prefer the Latin rite, mainly  because of the tremendous visible devotion expressed in the Elevation of the Body and Blood that immediately follow the Consecration.
Reply
#63
(08-23-2011, 01:27 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: You must admit though, the nationalism overrides catholicity in many members of the Church both east and west.

Nothing in the West compares to the inherent nationalism and factionalism of the eastern churches, not even 17th and 18th century gallicanism.

The east has been a plague to the Church since the 11th century.
Reply
#64
(08-23-2011, 11:50 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The east has been a plague to the Church since the 11th century.


Then why pursue the unia so energetically? We would be more than happy to take them back and relieve you of that "plague" at any time.
Reply
#65
(08-24-2011, 12:54 AM)Silouan Wrote:
(08-23-2011, 11:50 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The east has been a plague to the Church since the 11th century.

Then why pursue the unia so energetically? We would be more than happy to take them back and relieve you of that "plague" at any time.

The plague is precisely you, not the faithful uniates who have been sold out after Vatican II.
Reply
#66
(08-24-2011, 12:58 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(08-24-2011, 12:54 AM)Silouan Wrote:
(08-23-2011, 11:50 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The east has been a plague to the Church since the 11th century.

Then why pursue the unia so energetically? We would be more than happy to take them back and relieve you of that "plague" at any time.

The plague is precisely you, not the faithful uniates who have been sold out after Vatican II.


So you really think there is no nationalism in the Ukrainian Catholic Church or the other Eastern Catholic and even Polish Catholic Churches? Be careful my friend lest you discharge the firearm into your own foot.  ;D
Reply
#67
(08-22-2011, 01:45 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(08-22-2011, 01:37 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(08-22-2011, 01:34 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(08-22-2011, 01:29 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(08-21-2011, 05:48 PM)Silouan Wrote: Yes but that is beside the point. It is a bit disingenuous to criticize vernacular in the DL when the liturgy in Rome was in the vernacular as well. Considering the history of Greek to Latin in the Roman liturgy it seems the practice of translating the liturgy into the vernacular is a long and venerable tradition.

Not really. I would have opposed the translation of the liturgical texts into Latin from Greek then, as well. I don't think that's exactly what happened, though. In the first couple of centuries, the liturgy was in a state of flux (though obviously the essentials and basic pattern remained constant). The change seems to have been less one of translation than it was one of the bishop needing to be able to understand the texts he was more or les ad-libbing. The strict formalization of the liturgy seems to have taken place after the transition from Greek to Latin.

The Greek Orthodox DL is not in the "vernacular," at least it wasn't until very recently.

It was in Byzantine Greek which no living Greek speaks nowadays.

In the United States all Eastern Orthodox parishes use the vernacular, at least from what I can tell.

Not in Greece, from what I gather.

From what I have observed there is a real mix in the U.S.  I'm only familiar with two Greek Orthodox parishes (one parish  and one mission hoping to acheive parish status) in eastern WA.  Though under Greek jurisdiction (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and the Ecumenical Patriarch, not the Church of Greece) they serve a pan Orthodox congregation.  The Litrugies are chanted in English, Greek (I don't know if it is standard Greek or a liturgical Greek, I'm curious to ask now) and Church Slavonic.  There are many aspects of the Divine Liturgy that are repeated in three's, or shorter litanies that are repeated through out the Liturgy, so they will sing it one time in English, the next in Greek, and then another time in Slavoic.  The pew missal has transliterations of the Greek and Slavonic and the entire congregation joins in the chants.  Collects and the Epistle and Gospel are in English as is the Canon (though one priest I knew would sometimes) chant the Canon in Greek).

At the Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian) parishs I'm familiar with (Spokane and Seattle, WA) the liturgies are likewise a mix of English and Slavonic, with the congregations participating in the chants of both languages.

I have been told that in some very ethnic Orthodox parishes, mostly on the east coast, the Liturgies will be in that group's traditional liturgical language rather than English, but also as the origional immigrants die off things tend to shift more toward English.  In my experience the average, even nominal, Greek Orthodox (in the U.S.) can recite the Nicene Creed, the Our Father, and other basic prayers in Greek, from memory.  Among today's trads it might be a little different but in the pre VII U.S. church, other than an active altar server, almost NO Roman Catholic could recite anything in Latin (unless they had gone to a fancy Jesuit Prep school).

Another interesting consideration is that from the 19th. century through at least the 1950's there were some VERY ethnic Roman Catholic parishes in the U.S. were other than the required liturgical Latin everything else at Mass and in the parish was in Polish, Italian, or German.
Reply
#68
(08-24-2011, 12:54 AM)Silouan Wrote:
(08-23-2011, 11:50 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The east has been a plague to the Church since the 11th century.


Then why pursue the unia so energetically? We would be more than happy to take them back and relieve you of that "plague" at any time.

Because we don't really want to be taken back.
Reply
#69
(08-23-2011, 11:50 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The east has been a plague to the Church since the 11th century.

A plague? Really? How disrespectful can you be to such an ancient tradition within the Church?
Reply
#70
(08-24-2011, 12:54 AM)Silouan Wrote:
(08-23-2011, 11:50 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The east has been a plague to the Church since the 11th century.


Then why pursue the unia so energetically? We would be more than happy to take them back and relieve you of that "plague" at any time.

There are different views within the Catholic Church.

For example, there are some who agree with Vetus Ordo, but believe that the Union of Brest, and similar unias, were the cure to that disease.

P.S. Of course, there are also some of us who don't agree with Vetus Ordo's statement at all.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)